Are We In A Sim Gaming Dark Age?

[CptTrips]

How many do you think they would sell if it was subscription based like AH?

Isn't War Thunder essentially subscription for the premium level?  I think they have something like 70 million registered users.  Not sure how many of those eventually converted to paid, but it doesn't appear they are having the same cash problems as HTC.

I'm kinda surprised they do that good.  Subscriptions are a HARD sale now days.  I think the reason they can pull it off is that they have a broad on-ramp to the game with the F2P planes.  That lets new players play as long as they want to for free.  In the MAIN game, not some empty un-used side arena.

I think that's really smart.  Every day they come back to fly their free plane or grind for the next one is another day you might finally convince them to convert.  They don't just slam the door in a potential customers face at the two week mark.  Every day you extend direct contact with a potential customer is another day you might can close your sale.  A F2P plane-set keeps them coming back.  They work their way up.  They learn.  They meet players and form friends and enemies...connections.  Every day the advantage of a premium membership is dangled in front of them.  But no ultimatums.  Even if they never convert, they are still targets and activity so the servers don't look like ghost towns with tumble weeds bouncing across empty runways.

Landing a subscription customer now days is hard.  Think of it like landing a 5lb bass on 2lb test.  It's be nice to just yank that hog straight into the boat with one jerk.  But that probably won't work.  The important things is continually get them closer, but never let that line snap.  Even if you have to give them a little more line temporarily.  As long as that line hasn't snapped, you can keep working them in close enough to net! 

YEah, I know.  That's not how they did things back in Air Warrior!  It's not 1988 anymore.

[DmonSlyr]

Isn't War Thunder essentially subscription for the premium level?  I think they have something like 70 million registered users.  Not sure how many of those eventually converted to paid, but it doesn't appear they are having the same cash problems as HTC.

I'm kinda surprised they do that good.  Subscriptions are a HARD sale now days.  I think the reason they can pull it off is that they have a broad on-ramp to the game with the F2P planes.  That lets new players play as long as they want to for free.  In the MAIN game, not some empty un-used side arena.

I think that's really smart.  Every day they come back to fly their free plane or grind for the next one is another day you might finally convince them to convert.  They don't just slam the door in a potential customers face at the two week mark.  Every day you extend direct contact with a potential customer is another day you might can close your sale.  A F2P plane-set keeps them coming back.  They work their way up.  They learn.  They meet players and form friends and enemies...connections.  Every day the advantage of a premium membership is dangled in front of them.  But no ultimatums.  Even if they never convert, they are still targets and activity so the servers don't look like ghost towns with tumble weeds bouncing across empty runways.

Landing a subscription customer now days is hard.  Think of it like landing a 5lb bass on 2lb test.  It's be nice to just yank that hog straight into the boat with one jerk.  But that probably won't work.  The important things is continually get them closer, but never let that line snap.  Even if you have to give them a little more line temporarily.  As long as that line hasn't snapped, you can keep working them in close enough to net! 

YEah, I know.  That's not how they did things back in Air Warrior!  It's not 1988 anymore.

Yup, I made both of those points about H2H and subscription among others in my first post in the thread. War Thunder has a bigger apparatus behind it with way more money. It's pretty much easy mode CoD style which is why it's so successful. The thing is, the more a game is a "simulator" the less people play because it's not easy mode. The majority of gamers are kids who want free quick easy mode action. I had wish HTC brought back H2H rather than make the Pacific game. That would have kept players in AH and provided a "FTP." Game mode. We have the custom game mode thing now, but it just doesn't feel the same.

[AKIron]

I wondered if you were still around Wabbit. Still have your astronomical observatory?

[CptTrips]

I wondered if you were still around Wabbit. Still have your astronomical observatory?

Yep.  It hasn't gotten much use last couple of years as some scope repairs were needed.  It's all fixed now and I hope to get some photography done this year.

[AKIron]

Cool Beans. 

[CptTrips]

The thing is, the more a game is a "simulator" the less people play because it's not easy mode. The majority of gamers are kids who want free quick easy mode action. I had wish HTC brought back H2H rather than make the Pacific game. That would have kept players in AH and provided a "FTP." Game mode. We have the custom game mode thing now, but it just doesn't feel the same.

Well ya know, IMHO, War Thunder players are your best target audience to convert to AH.  AH is a big step up, but not full-on, radiator-flap-twiddling study sim.

I find it hard to imagine converting IL2 or DCS pilots abandoning their sims to come here.  They will see their sim as superior (whether or not others here will agree).  They don't want to pay a subscription.  Especially if it doesn't appear to have any on-going development active.   They'll likely think the whole look and feel, GUI, in-game, will seem clunky and old style to them. 

The things they might admire, like the organized scenarios and events, could just be transplanted to another platform (if they haven't already.  Does Il2 and DCS have organized events and scenarios?).  After all, that tradition was simply transplanted from AW -> WB -> AH.  It's people-based not platform restricted.  They'd probably try and enhance their own sim rather than migrate to one they feel is behind the tech curve or even relegated to long-term-maintenance effort only.

War Thunder players might see it as stepping up to a more serious sim but they are going to be unimpressed with the whole UI\initial impression.  Also the monetization model is probably  alien to them coming from WT.  Before they've even made it to the runway they get informed that it's not REALLY a F2P.  At least not in the commonly used meaning of the term they were expecting.  They will not impressed with the twisted logic on why it still qualifies for that description because after the trial you can still get into some empty, unused arenas.

"But they don’t even stay 15 minutes!  What good would a longer trial or F2P do?”  I can hear the argument already.  Here is what I imagining is happening:

----------------------------------------------------------
* I hear about this flight sim on Steam.  F2P.  Cool.  I’ll try it and see if I like it better than WT.

* Start up...Oh.  It’s not F2P exactly.  I have a two week trial then I have to pay for a subscription. What B.S.  That was definitely false advertising.  F2P means there are starter planes I can fly for free like WT.  Hmmm.

* This GUI.  WTF.  It looks like a unix administrator tools dialog.  I’m sure it is capable, but doesn’t exactly set the mood and get my juices flow.  And the menu layout is wack.

* This Fluffing loud music loop just goes on and on.  How can I turn it off?  You might find out that you have to spawn into a map to get to the menu choice to turn off the music, not that you hear in the map, but back in the UI you came from.  Can’t get to that while in the UI you were hearing it in?  Make it stop!  For the love of Cod!  Make it STOP!

*Offfffff this UI is confusing.  I might eventually figure out what to click on to end up an a runway.

*Well the graphics in game are OK.  Not fantastic, but not bad exactly.  WT is better.

*  This clipboard UI is annoying.  It is probably useful in flight for quick stuff, but why is it the whole UI for the game.  Some better traditional screens would be better at startup and configuration.  Leave the clipboard in the plane.

*  OK. Welp, I’m done.  I could probably figure out how to get this configure and get off the ground, but I have already decided it’s a hard no.
- Don’t like the UI.
- Graphics look dated.
- I sure as heck am not paying a subscription every month.
- Even if I was, I feel a bait and switch was attempted so I start off with a really sour taste and nothing I’ve seen so far is compelling enough to dispel that.
* Forget it.  Not worth even wasting an hour.  I already am not interested just from what I’ve seen so far.  No point in wasting more time.
*  AltF4.
*  Uninstall.
* Move on the next in the stack of top tier games competing for my attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------


 

[AKIron]

For 40 years I've tried on and off to interest my brother in combat "sims". He flew helicopters in the US Army and was one of the first 100 Apache pilots. Then he went on to the airlines as an ATP and retired a few years ago from American. No PC sim interested him until DCS. He likes their modeling of the AH-64D and bought an HP Reverb G2 for that. He is hooked.

[CptTrips]

For 40 years I've tried on and off to interest my brother in combat "sims". He flew helicopters in the US Army and was one of the first 100 Apache pilots. Then he went on to the airlines as an ATP and retired a few years ago from American. No PC sim interested him until DCS. He likes their modeling of the AH-64D and bought an HP Reverb G2 for that. He is hooked.

I loved flying that.  Got to get my game machine back working.  Really need to upgrade, but I'm hoping the coming global recession will drop prices.

Those heli's in DCS have gotten me interesting in sims again.  Not even PvP.  Just spending hour putzing around trying to land on roof tops and making little missions for myself.  So different from fixed wing that it rekindled my interest.

DCS has it's own problems too.  Eventually ground AI needs to be vastly improved to really use the heli's to their fullest.  Luckily I am still in the honeymoon period just having fun learning to fly.

 

 

[Eagler]

I'll take AH music over german screaming in your ear in IL2 anyday

Eagler

[oboe]

Well ya know, IMHO, War Thunder players are your best target audience to convert to AH.  AH is a big step up, but not full-on, radiator-flap-twiddling study sim.

I find it hard to imagine converting IL2 or DCS pilots abandoning their sims to come here.  They will see their sim as superior (whether or not others here will agree).  They don't want to pay a subscription.  Especially if it doesn't appear to have any on-going development active.   They'll likely think the whole look and feel, GUI, in-game, will seem clunky and old style to them. 

The things they might admire, like the organized scenarios and events, could just be transplanted to another platform (if they haven't already.  Does Il2 and DCS have organized events and scenarios?).  After all, that tradition was simply transplanted from AW -> WB -> AH.  It's people-based not platform restricted.  They'd probably try and enhance their own sim rather than migrate to one they feel is behind the tech curve or even relegated to long-term-maintenance effort only.

War Thunder players might see it as stepping up to a more serious sim but they are going to be unimpressed with the whole UI\initial impression.  Also the monetization model is probably  alien to them coming from WT.  Before they've even made it to the runway they get informed that it's not REALLY a F2P.  At least not in the commonly used meaning of the term they were expecting.  They will not impressed with the twisted logic on why it still qualifies for that description because after the trial you can still get into some empty, unused arenas.

"But they don’t even stay 15 minutes!  What good would a longer trial or F2P do?”  I can hear the argument already.  Here is what I imagining is happening:

----------------------------------------------------------
* I hear about this flight sim on Steam.  F2P.  Cool.  I’ll try it and see if I like it better than WT.

* Start up...Oh.  It’s not F2P exactly.  I have a two week trial then I have to pay for a subscription. What B.S.  That was definitely false advertising.  F2P means there are starter planes I can fly for free like WT.  Hmmm.

* This GUI.  WTF.  It looks like a unix administrator tools dialog.  I’m sure it is capable, but doesn’t exactly set the mood and get my juices flow.  And the menu layout is wack.

* This Fluffing loud music loop just goes on and on.  How can I turn it off?  You might find out that you have to spawn into a map to get to the menu choice to turn off the music, not that you hear in the map, but back in the UI you came from.  Can’t get to that while in the UI you were hearing it in?  Make it stop!  For the love of Cod!  Make it STOP!

*Offfffff this UI is confusing.  I might eventually figure out what to click on to end up an a runway.

*Well the graphics in game are OK.  Not fantastic, but not bad exactly.  WT is better.

*  This clipboard UI is annoying.  It is probably useful in flight for quick stuff, but why is it the whole UI for the game.  Some better traditional screens would be better at startup and configuration.  Leave the clipboard in the plane.

*  OK. Welp, I’m done.  I could probably figure out how to get this configure and get off the ground, but I have already decided it’s a hard no.
- Don’t like the UI.
- Graphics look dated.
- I sure as heck am not paying a subscription every month.
- Even if I was, I feel a bait and switch was attempted so I start off with a really sour taste and nothing I’ve seen so far is compelling enough to dispel that.
* Forget it.  Not worth even wasting an hour.  I already am not interested just from what I’ve seen so far.  No point in wasting more time.
*  AltF4.
*  Uninstall.
* Move on the next in the stack of top tier games competing for my attention.
----------------------------------------------------------------

I think you're probably right CptTrips, with especially regarding the F2P misrepresentation.  What AH offers is a free trial period, not F2P. 

The road map to solve this seems pretty clear; a limited plane/vehicle set available to players who play without the subscription charge.  Major games subscription-based games like Eve Online and World of Warcraft moved to this model years ago and are successful with it.

I *think* it would help keep new players longer than 15 minutes; maybe even long enough to get them hooked on gameplay and the community.   Aces High does a great job of making multiplayer feel like multiplayer.   Some of the best times I've had in game are when I become involved with a small team trying to take or defend a base.   In DCS or IL-2, even though its multiplayer, it just feels more like SP to me when I'm online.   

Agree with you on the dated look of the UI and offloading some admin/graphic settings from the clipboard to initial panels, before you get into the game proper - it would just be more consistent with the way most other games work, and therefore be less confusing.   The clipboard interface is still a pretty clever implementation though.   









 

 

[Spikes]

I think you're probably right CptTrips, with especially regarding the F2P misrepresentation.  What AH offers is a free trial period, not F2P. 

FWIW, HT has addressed in the past why it is listed as F2P, he had no choice.

[AKIron]

I would imagine free to play has a lot of management overhead. It's easier to be disruptive and exploitative when free email accounts are all it takes to create multiple AH accounts. No credit card identifying you.

[TWCAxew]

I think AH registers your MAC/ip address. I played at my mom's house and than moved for the holidays to my dads house when I was 15 and AH made me pay 

[AKIron]

AH may have other ways to identify you too but all easily spoofed by virtually anyone these days.

[CptTrips]

I would imagine free to play has a lot of management overhead. It's easier to be disruptive and exploitative when free email accounts are all it takes to create multiple AH accounts. No credit card identifying you.

War Thunder seems to survive the overhead somehow.  They apparently find it advantageous enough to keep it as their basic model.  The strategy seems to make them a lot of money.

I'm not saying it would be no effort to implement and manage.  I am saying it might be the price to pay to eventually coax players into accepting a subscription nowadays.


I'd wager that most of the players paying them a premium subscription probably thought they would only ever play the free planes and never subscribe.  WT said, OK, No problem. There is a free plane-set you can play forever without subscribing if that is what you prefer.  You just bought some goodwill pretty cheaply.  You provided you other paying players the most valuable thing they require; other flying players to shoot at, and you've maintained contact with a potential sale and preserved the opportunity to close the sale later.

You drop a frog into boiling water, he'll just jump out.  You gently place that frog in tepid water and carefully raise the temp, with a little luck you might make frog soup.   The two week trial and then take it or leave it; pay up of F-off! is a lot like dropping the frog in boiling water. 

It may or may not help enough at this point.   But it is something HT could do with the resources he has.  He can make code changes to the billing and accounting system to support it.  He can do that without needing new art or modelling assets which he probably can't afford right now.  It's probably the lowest hanging fruit that he himself can implement by himself.