Author Topic: Marseille  (Read 801 times)

Offline Lucchini

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 32
Marseille
« on: December 14, 2001, 03:52:00 AM »
Hello
does anybody knows if a good biography of this ace exist?

Thx

Lucc

Offline deSelys

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2512
Marseille
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2001, 05:30:00 AM »
No, but you should like this link: Marseille by Major Tate, USAF
Current ID: Romanov

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

'I AM DID NOTHING WRONG' - Famous last forum words by legoman

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Marseille
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2001, 12:15:00 PM »
Lucchini, there is one, I bought it a few weeks ago, bout 200 pages or so, took me 2 oe 3 days to read it. Just couldn't let go of the thing, this guy was near supernatural when it came to flying, he could do stuff that hardly the plane couldn't do, he took scored kills no metter how he flew, intverted, turning or not, and no matter how the enemy flew. I scored kills with MG's only, and 20mm only, sometimes not using more then 10 20mm rounds per plane.

Well, can read about it your self  :)

Book is called "German FIghter Hans-Joachim Marseille: The Life story of the Star of Africa" ISBN: 0-88740-517-7

This is without doubt the pilot of all times I look up to.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Marseille
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2001, 05:48:00 AM »
Top flyer and top gun, no doubt.
Would be happy to find more websites on Marseille, some things he did are still somewhat a mystery, and people still argue about his claims.
A british Wing commander made a study of Marseilles famous day, where he claimed 17 british fighters. He found out from RAF loss reports that the British lost 8 aircraft in that area on that day. Hardly all to Marseille?  Well, still today, this is a debate.
I bought a book on Fighter Command losses over 1942, but unfortunately it did not cover N Africa, only the home front. Would love to dig more into this if I just had the sources. I have made some study of  LW claims vs RAF actual losses on the French front, and it is interesting enough. Sometimes claims are 100% accurate, sometimes double, and there are even claims where there were no losses.
Anyway, I have a theory on Marseilles favourite anti-spitfire maneuver, which I wanted to share with you (If you don't know it allready).
Since the Spitfires would almost always break into a tight turn (the desert variant being somewhat slower than the 109F) Marseille would use that. He chopped the throttle and delicately forced the 109's slots to slam out. In a slow, almost hovering turn, he got his aircraft's nose into firing position. With some deflection, he would see the Spitfire floating through his gunsight. He would  fire approximately when the Spitfires nose was entering his sight, and line his few pings exclusively in the engine and the cockpit. With the low speed applied, and the very short range, both machine guns and cannons were deadly, and ulætimate accuracy was reached.
The rest of his buddies would cover him while he performed his stunts, otherwise he would be putting himself into imminent danger, being that slow in the middle of combat.
I have read some other accounts of 109 pilots who did this, but they were not many.
Why, one would ask. Well, only a few could master that good a feel to make the slots open so precisely, - if they didn't the plane could snap quite brutally. And totally sacrificing your speed for it could prove fatal.
I guess AH does not feature the slots. Would be fun if one could perform this in AH, that would definately bring more people to fly the 109!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Marseille
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2001, 08:53:00 PM »
sorry guys... forum bug.... TEST!

carry on...

Offline JuhaV

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Marseille
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2002, 08:43:00 AM »
Hello Angus
if You mean W/C Johnny Johnson, he forgot that also SAAF flown that day and took losses. Can't remeber exact numbers anymore but combined losses of the RAF and the SAAF were around 14.

Best regards
Juha

Offline Wilbus

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4472
Marseille
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2002, 11:21:00 AM »
In the Marseille book I have, the day he shot down 17 fighters were checked by the author with Allied actaul losses that day, and it was correct acording to what he saw.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Seeker

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
Marseille
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2002, 12:40:00 PM »
Great link, thx.

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Marseille
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2002, 09:21:00 PM »
The author who did a survey of that day was actually Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith.
Even if the combined Allied forces DID lose 17 aircraft that day, it makes you wonder if they all fell prey to just Marseille, and the rest of the Luftwaffe scored nothing?
Another thing to compare is the actual fact that on the Western front the RAF fighter command suffered the losses of 1 aircraft that day.
Mind-boggling isn't it
  :confused:   :confused:   :confused:
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Grendel

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 877
      • http://www.compart.fi/icebreakers
Marseille
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2002, 07:14:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus:
The author who did a survey of that day was actually Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith.
Even if the combined Allied forces DID lose 17 aircraft that day, it makes you wonder if they all fell prey to just Marseille, and the rest of the Luftwaffe scored nothing?

Other studies have found that the combined losses in that area were much more than those 17 aircraft. So there's nothing strange here, except Marseille's awesome gunnery skills.

Offline RJH57

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 134
Marseille
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2002, 11:00:00 PM »
>The author who did a survey of that day was actually Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith.

Sqn Ldr Duncan-Smith is an obvious idiot. Read "Fighter Over The Desert" by Christopher Shores & Hans Ring for a detailed daily account of the desert air war. Yes, the Brits (including RAAF and SAAF!) did lose _more_ than 17 a/c on September 01, 1942 and Marseilles was _not_ the only German pilot to score that day. Total allied losses of single-engined fighters on that day was 20 (with several more badly damaged): 9 Hurricanes, 4 Kittyhawks, 4 Tomahawks, 2 Spitfires, 1 P-40 and also 2 Beaufighters.
"In Fighters, one must always quest to be
     a well-oiled machine fore Belching,
Whoring and Punching of Heads because
 inevitably the Goal is to flame the Enemy
            and Screw his Old Lady"

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Marseille
« Reply #11 on: January 07, 2002, 11:08:00 AM »
Fighter Over The Desert, now that's one I am gonna buy  :)
I have been studying both LW claims vs RAF losses and the opposite a little bit, so the amazing day of Marseille is just one interesting bit.
As far as I've seen, the LW overclaims a bit, sometimes up to double, sometimes claims kills when the opponent lost no plane at all, and sometimes they are 100% accurate.
Overclaims seem to hold hands with big frantic air engagements, which is normal.
Many kill claims also match with a damaged aircraft RTB.
I´ll dig up some examples on claims vs. actual losses, however those are from the RAF-LW fighting over France and the netherlands in 1942. Sometime soon.
Good to know of another good book, - I have some literure by Shores, and that is all good stuff.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline RJH57

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 134
Marseille
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2002, 07:53:00 AM »
In the confusion of air combat, the same kill may be shot at by more than 1 attacker and each attacker may understandably claim a victory, unaware of the other combatant's claim. The Luftwaffe - with typical Teutonic rigor and thoroughness - was the most conscientious of _ALL_ the nations in verifying and documenting it's pilots victory claims. The British claims are probably the least reliable - their BoB claims are grossly overinflated. The "Truth" in their class-conscious society has always been secondary to their national obsession with "morale" and "keeping up appearances". I find it incredulous for the Brits to question the veracity of Marseilles' combat record while they accept an undocumented phantom-ace like Pattle (??) and a deliberate bullsh*tter like WWI's Billy Bishop. US Air Corps claims cannot always be compared to German claims, because the US counted air-to-ground strafing kills while the Germans only counted air-to-air victories. The US also distributed 1/2 and even 1/4 victories while the Germans assigned only full kills.
"In Fighters, one must always quest to be
     a well-oiled machine fore Belching,
Whoring and Punching of Heads because
 inevitably the Goal is to flame the Enemy
            and Screw his Old Lady"

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
Marseille
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2002, 08:44:00 AM »
You tell'um furball... :)

Amen brother............

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9490
Marseille
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2002, 01:55:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FurBull:
The Luftwaffe - with typical Teutonic rigor and thoroughness - was the most conscientious of _ALL_ the nations in verifying and documenting it's pilots victory claims. The British claims are probably the least reliable - their BoB claims are grossly overinflated. The "Truth" in their class-conscious society has always been secondary to their national obsession with "morale" and "keeping up appearances". ....  .US Air Corps claims cannot always be compared to German claims, because the US counted air-to-ground strafing kills while the Germans only counted air-to-air victories. The US also distributed 1/2 and even 1/4 victories while the Germans assigned only full kills.

Um....where do you get this crap?

- Oldman