Author Topic: We killed the tomcat... what's left?  (Read 3466 times)

Offline Morpheus

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We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« on: March 23, 2023, 09:33:20 AM »
This probably a moot question or whatever but My knowledge on what we have right now isn't up to par regarding this whole subject... so SHOOT ME! :airplane:

After what I call a sin we ran away it seems from a whole world of positive additions that the F-14 brought to the Navy and the US. Do we have anything that is as bad arse as the pheonix missle? The range and accuracy... Is that whole world open now for the next?

No Jet in the world is as sexy or as bad a... as the Tomcat was is now and forever will be!!!
« Last Edit: March 23, 2023, 09:39:15 AM by Morpheus »
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Offline AKIron

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Offline Eagler

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2023, 03:33:34 PM »
Unlimited cheap drone swarms

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Offline AKIron

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2023, 09:37:43 PM »
Them drones ain't cheap.
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Offline Eagler

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Offline sparky127

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2023, 01:21:36 PM »
I think it was worse that they killed the f22.

Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2023, 02:31:56 PM »
Dick Cheney killed the F-14 just as they started making the D model. The navy wanted hundreds of them but Cheney called it a  jobs program and killed it off. Grumman and it's supply chain  ended up losing 80k jobs and forced a merger with Grumman.

They were very expensive to maintain.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2023, 04:48:01 PM »
Phoenix highly overrated, but the D was a beast airplane.
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Offline Tig

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2023, 05:14:21 PM »
The US DoD is full of bullcrap. We're gonna lose a war because of all these obscenely expensive weapons systems.

Okay fine we have stealthy aircraft, that cost tens of thousands of dollars per flight hour, meaning pilots get less than 15 hours per month (not even enough to maintain safe aircraft familiarity, much less combat prowess). (Source: 2022 Congressional Budget Office analysis: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57713)

Remember when the Serbs took down an F117 with an old SAM system and a new technique? Supposedly the F117 is stealthier than the Raptor (read, the F22s are screwed).
All that tech amounts to nothing when a 78 year old 88mm finds its mark.

The Pentagon has dumped over $1,000,000,000,000 into the JSF F-35 program over the past 27 years, and we still don't have a truly effective force of them. Plus, the pilots call it the Penguin on account of its handling. Great. (Source: Top Gun by ret. USN Capt. Dan Pedersen, published 2019)

Reminder that the Tomcat took FOUR years from Navy request to entering service. Yes it had some teething problems but it took 23 less years than the F35.

Vietnam taught us that the altar of high technology and BVR kills is a false god's sacrifice. A lot of good men died in Vietnam because of those foolish ideas. Now they're saying almost the exact same thing, except now they're saying stealth instead of BVR missiles.

We need a LOT of F16s is what we need. None of these stupid 5th-6th generation toys.

Navy needs the Tomcat back in service, Hornets simply cannot run the same range without a very expensive inflight refueling network.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 05:16:47 PM by Tig »
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2023, 05:31:25 PM »
We've built almost 900 F-35s so far. They are WIDELY in service with many countries. Our allies. They will be a huge factor in any war. They are highly capable AND being built in huge numbers. Along with drone force multipliers - we will have the most formidable air power in history.

We've got the Nest generation fighter too. It was developed and FLOWN in about one year.

We are not sitting around.

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/
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Offline Tig

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2023, 06:59:34 PM »
We've built almost 900 F-35s so far. They are WIDELY in service with many countries. Our allies. They will be a huge factor in any war. They are highly capable AND being built in huge numbers. Along with drone force multipliers - we will have the most formidable air power in history.

We've got the Nest generation fighter too. It was developed and FLOWN in about one year.

We are not sitting around.

https://www.defensenews.com/breaking-news/2020/09/15/the-us-air-force-has-built-and-flown-a-mysterious-full-scale-prototype-of-its-future-fighter-jet/

Sorry, I really don't care about so called press releases about stuff like this. Look at actual statistical analyses and government reports and studies instead if you want to know what's really going on. We already know they have toys, and toys don't win wars.

And how many hours are the pilots flying this so called end-all fighter again?
We still have yet to see the US military use these so called drone force multipliers. How many hours are these export countries flying their F-35s?

I call BS on pure numbers.

-How many F-35s are combat-ready (meaning ready to scramble within one day)?
-How long to take an F-35 out of reserve and into combat safely?
-How many personnel to get one into the air for a combat air patrol flight?

Let's look at the logistics. How long to order a new part for an F-35 to get to say, Germany? How much in air refulling capabilities do these countries have?
If the F-35 is so good, why is the Pentagon ordering F-15EXs? AC-130s?
They're building new AC-130s. What happened to the F-35 being the end-all multirole and ground attack aircraft? We're still putting howitzers and miniguns on cargo planes.

The reality of war is that you can NEVER expect to easily win. Anyone who says "there's no way we lose this" or "this is better than everything else" is trying to sell you something or manipulate you. Even though we had the best fighters by the end of WWII, we still won by brute numbers and force. This is backed up by countless war history books. American mass manufacturing crushed the Luftwaffe and Japan.

Look at the CBO report I linked, you might want to think about how that might affect this so called "huge factor" in a combat scenario.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2023, 07:08:07 PM by Tig »
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Offline AKIron

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2023, 07:20:34 PM »
Simulators have gotten a lot better over the last few decades. You can model your own aircraft in them quite realistically. What you can't do with as much accuracy is model enemy aircraft. You can't exactly war game with them in real life either so there will always be unknown unknowns.
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2023, 07:22:12 PM »
Nobody said we can win no matter what or that we have something better than anybody else.

The fact is that the f-35 is being built in very large numbers probably more than any other fighter we've ever built.

We will have numbers and probably superior technology. We already have numbers over the Chinese Air Force. And quality.

The f-35 is a massive program and it's not just the United States building these and maintaining the parts.

Now that Russia invaded Ukraine, more orders are coming in for the f-35. It's going to be a huge production run.

On top of that we will have the next generation fighter coming along as well.

I'm not sure what you think, tig, but we're not sitting around losing ability. We're gaining ability.


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Offline Tig

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2023, 08:58:38 PM »
Nobody said we can win no matter what or that we have something better than anybody else.

The fact is that the f-35 is being built in very large numbers probably more than any other fighter we've ever built.

Try 4,604 F16 Falcons. Try pulling up actual facts instead of unbased opinions.  :cheers:


I'm not sure what you think, tig, but we're not sitting around losing ability. We're gaining ability.


Apparently I'm still not making myself clear. I don't believe the JSF program is meeting its goals, and I think as a result the US military is grossly unprepared for the next war. Capisce?  :aok
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