Poland

[LCADolby]

It's the same thing as when the Iron Curtain started going up; One side breaks his verbal contract and then the other guy goes, huh your word aint watermelon why would I keep mine.
Verbal contracts are binding in many-a countries law. I'd bet that no leader wants to look like Neville Chamberlain signed paper in his hand, "Peace in our time", and then the next moment looking ridiculous.

"Shake my hand on a deal, and I'll never break my word. But get me to put it in writing, and I'll have my best team of lawyers looking for loopholes and ways to get out of it". I forget who said it

I do not support war, I do not support civilians being killed in this war, I do not support Vlad but this is the situation; Minsk Agreement agreed, Minsk agreement broken, last straw -> War
Whether we like it or not, back someone into a corner eventually they come out swinging.
If I step onto your property and you come out and tell me to leave, I say sure I've not intention to enter your house. The next hour you come out and I'm another step or two closer to your door, and you keep saying, please leave, everytime I make another step or two towards your door. You are eventually either be sat with me in your living room or a gun goes into your hand.

"It doesn't exist" they cry, "here it is" others say, You answer should be "Oh, now I understand" not "you used a source I trust, but it came from you therefore I don't trust it". But just as I thought, nothing would be good enough..  Gas, you trust wiki, said it yourself. You couldn't accept it and we have you wriggling to get out of it.

Fact/truth driven discussion is more constructive if harder to swallow, if you want an echo chamber go to social media.. I'm out, talk amongst yourselves.

[GasTeddy]

It's the same thing as when the Iron Curtain started going up; One side breaks his verbal contract and then the other guy goes, huh your word aint watermelon why would I keep mine.
Verbal contracts are binding in many-a countries law. I'd bet that no leader wants to look like Neville Chamberlain signed paper in his hand, "Peace in our time", and then the next moment looking ridiculous.

"Shake my hand on a deal, and I'll never break my word. But get me to put it in writing, and I'll have my best team of lawyers looking for loopholes and ways to get out of it". I forget who said it

Tell me where and when international politics and relations have been based in verbal agreement? Verbal agreement is binding in many countries, yes. Show me that piece of international law where something what someone has said is binding contract. Especially, when it's said in a speech.

I do not support war, I do not support civilians being killed in this war, I do not support Vlad but this is the situation; Minsk Agreement agreed, Minsk agreement broken, last straw -> War
Whether we like it or not, back someone into a corner eventually they come out swinging.

Yes. Signed Minsk agreement broken by separatists. That's what was in Wiki, about what I wrote "Wikipedia is perhaps not the most independent and neutral source of information but still much more reliable than russian sources and it summons up here happenings with Minsk Agreement". And then someone said "Wikipedia is wank (English-English for trash), get yourself on an OSINT". Before quoting it as a reliable source of information...   

If I step onto your property and you come out and tell me to leave, I say sure I've not intention to enter your house. The next hour you come out and I'm another step or two closer to your door, and you keep saying, please leave, everytime I make another step or two towards your door. You are eventually either be sat with me in your living room or a gun goes into your hand.

Who went to someone else territory, Ukraine, NATO or tsar Putler's russia? If you claim it was NATO, then you admit Ukraine and other former soviet satellites in your opinion belongs to russia.

"It doesn't exist" they cry, "here it is" others say, You answer should be "Oh, now I understand" not "you used a source I trust, but it came from you therefore I don't trust it". But just as I thought, nothing would be good enough..  Gas, you trust wiki, said it yourself. You couldn't accept it and we have you wriggling to get out of it.

So I'm wriggling when you say Wiki is rubbish and then quote it as a reliable source after I said it is not the most independent and neutral..?   

Fact/truth driven discussion is more constructive if harder to swallow, if you want an echo chamber go to social media.. I'm out, talk amongst yourselves.

Understand your decision very well. I'd do the same if I was contradicting myself that much.

[GasTeddy]

Deleted, double posting by accident.   

[Eagler]

Question to fd ski/ gas teddy

Back to 20I4..

Some here think the US helped overthrow the elected officials because they were Russia friendly and replaced them with western buddies..

Was this not the case?

You do realize Ukraine had put a very bad taste in many mouths here due to it being in the news prior to the invasion as it tied to corruption of our government officials at the highest level...but we cannot discuss that here..please don't or they will lock it

Eagler

[fd ski]

Question to fd ski/ gas teddy

Back to 20I4..

Some here think the US helped overthrow the elected officials because they were Russia friendly and replaced them with western buddies..
Was this not the case?

This is a standard information, CIA is behind everything that isn't to liking of Russia. People of Ukraine didn't want to be a russian puppet, they rebelled. If you want to believe it was couple nazis paid by CIA, there is nothing i can say to convince you.
Just square that with what is going on right now. If really it was just a CIA operation and whole country wanted to be russialike crap state, why is this war still going on? Who is fighting? How many people did CIA recruit ?

It makes no sense. And having lived though iron wall falling, i can assure that most people want good life for their families, and that's who west and democracy offers. East gives you slavery and watching your local oligarch screw you over.

You do realize Ukraine had put a very bad taste in many mouths here due to it being in the news prior to the invasion as it tied to corruption of our government officials at the highest level...but we cannot discuss that here..please don't or they will lock it

Why ? because some american politicans wanted to do business there ? Anywhere you go, there are american corporations. They are usually coming on coattails of USA politicians. What do you propose ? Ukraine should have banned US politicians from coming and talking ? You're blaming a victim.

I'm ignoring the substance of entire "biden peddling influence" issue here. 4 years of Trump administration and they didn't find or prove crap. Same administration that blackmailed country fighting for survival.... my bad taste in mouth relates to different party of this issue...



 

[fd ski]

This took 2 seconds, is some Mandela Effect weirdness going on?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_in_Russia_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion

Under Historical context;
"Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"

He said, she said. That's the reason why agreements are made in writing, signature and all that. Rest of it is hearsay.

so can we agree on the fact that there was no agreement and NATO couldn't break something that didn't exist ? We'll tackle Minsk agreements in next steps.

[Eagler]

Thanks fd ski

I mentioned nothing about a couple of Nazis but it does sound like the CIA probably assisted/enabled whoever wanted a regime change in 2014 imo

You are definitely overlooking the corruption in Ukraine with our then vp that many of us can't as it is pointing to additional corruption in our justice department here

But feel free to overlook whatever as I  like you don't have definitive proof on any of it

Eagler

[CptTrips]

Under Historical context;
"Two days later, Genscher repeats the statement at a press conference with Baker in Washington: "As I said, NATO has no intentions of expanding to the east."[22]"

As it was pointed out.... BY GORBACHEV HIMSELF!!!!!!!  Are you saying Gorbachev lied and Putin is telling the truth? 

that was referring to expanding into East Germany.

I've shown you the quotes of the people who were IN THE ROOM DURING NEGOTIATIONS.  Including the leader of the Soviet Union HIMSELF!  You prefer your Putin's disinformation.

There was no agreement to not expand NATO into other countries.  None.  Zero.  It didn't happen.  It was never discussed. As Gorbachev stated.

What was agreed was that non-German NATO troops would not advance into East Germany.


That is what Gorbachev himself said was agreed to.  That is what Genscher and Baker were reffering to.


Please stop embarrassing yourself.

[CptTrips]

You are definitely overlooking the corruption in Ukraine

Corruption does not justify invasion.

You keep saying how corrupt America is.  Are you saying America should be invaded?  Is that what your Russian handlers have been training you to accept?

[Eagler]

Lol my Russian handlers

My blond wife is mostly German...she is my only handler these days

Keep cheering your bloody wars on..when are you shipping out?

Eagler

[CptTrips]

Keep cheering your bloody wars on..when are you shipping out?

Keep swallowing Putin's load of talking points.

When are you migrating to Russia?

Though you probably wouldn't make any better of a Russian than you do an American.

They call their policy "accommodation." And they say if we'll only avoid any direct confrontation with the enemy, he'll forget his evil ways and learn to love us. All who oppose them are indicted as warmongers. They say we offer simple answers to complex problems. Well, perhaps there is a simple answer - not an easy answer but simple: If you and I have the courage to tell our elected officials that we want our national policy based on what we know in our hearts is morally right.

https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/reagans/ronald-reagan/time-choosing-speech-october-27-1964

[Chris79]

Lol my Russian handlers

My wife is mostly German...she is my only handler these days

Keep cheering your bloody wars on..when are you shipping out?

Eagler

Probably the sort to send someone else out to die while thumping their chest in a self righteous frenzy.

[CptTrips]

Probably the sort to send someone else out to die while thumping their chest in a self righteous frenzy.

Better than the scum who support Putin, China and Hamas.  Even if they are too stupid to realize it.

That is why they are Useful Idiots.  They are too stupid to realize their treason.

[CptTrips]

I am absolutely for peace.

When the last Hamas\Hezbollah scumbag has been exterminated.
When Putin is dead on a meat hook.
When the Russian army turns East and marches back to their families in Russia.
When China decides to keep their dirty greasy chopsticks off Taiwan.

Others idea of peace is to submit and let Putin, China, Iran and Hamas win.

[Eagler]

You're just another armchair general CptTrips .. a real tough guy for sure lol

You and your war mongering ways are what is wrong with the world

It is not a desire for peace as you weirdly try to state

Enjoy the bloodshed on both sides...especially the innocent ones who are caught it the crossfire of the war mongers

War might be necessary but should not be cheered on like it is some sick sporting event imo..

Eagler