Author Topic: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable  (Read 70626 times)

Offline edge12674

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2024, 09:45:38 AM »
I'm curious, what made you lean toward DCS over IL2?

Looking forward to your comparison of AH and IL-2.

I started by comparing the P-51 model in AH, DCS, and IL-2.  Of the three I found the DCS model to be more accurate and inline with my real flight experience.  I was surprised how much I liked a "clickable cockpit".  It just makes more sense to me than trying to key-bind every control (especially when using VR).  The clickable cockpit gives me more of a feeling of intimacy/immersion with the machine than the other programs.

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Offline Trav02

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2024, 09:46:33 AM »
Technically, 1946 combines several previous packs and adds some new content, think the original game dates back to 2000-ish.
I'm curious, what pack are you thinking of using? BAT is the latest, but is massive, some 80gb. VP Modpack is older but pretty solid..
BAT has tweaked effects I think, but mostly focus on content...give WXTech's effects packs a try, they are revolutionary.
Graphics Extender mod is amazing, but unfinished on some regards- would recommend trying it though..

This is all in regards to single player offline...If you're looking for online, ultrapack would be the way to go...it is co-op missions, mainly populated by 20 guys on Sundays...so with regard to online play, AH by miles.
Haven't tried il-2 GB though.


Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2024, 10:00:41 AM »
Yeah, but you can pick up a GB pretty darn cheap on sale and you then own it,  not just renting.

I've been having a similar discussion to this one with a IL2: 1946 influencer over on one of the discords.  He was open to hear about AH.  I gave him my unvarnished opinion of pro's and cons.  We made an agreement.  He is going to give AH a try and I am going to try 1946 and we will write up our evaluations and get back together at some point and compare them.

Funny thing was, it turned out I already owned 1946 on Steam.  I had just never ran it.  I think I bought it on sale for $4.99 and just forgot about it.  :rofl

AH was built on ca 2000 code base and 1946 came out I think around 2008.  But AH had a significant graphics upgrade ~2017ish, so I am going to test current AH against 1946 + one of their mod super packs.  I think that would be the fairest test.  No one flys the original vanilla version anymore.  I probably won't be able to dig in until mid Feb.


I'm curious, what made you lean toward DCS over IL2?

The BAT mod is the best one. Makes it a whole new game especially if you like career modes. It’s probably the closet graphical comparison to AH. I do think Aces is better by a bit.
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2024, 10:16:34 AM »
Looking forward to your comparison of AH and IL-2.

I started by comparing the P-51 model in AH, DCS, and IL-2.  Of the three I found the DCS model to be more accurate and inline with my real flight experience.  I was surprised how much I liked a "clickable cockpit".  It just makes more sense to me than trying to key-bind every control (especially when using VR).  The clickable cockpit gives me more of a feeling of intimacy/immersion with the machine than the other programs.

I was the same way.  I used to argue vigorously that I didn't want to flip switches.  But after a while I like learning about how the actual aircraft really functioned in RL.  I still don't want to do cold starts on a MP server, but I don't mind the extra systems management in flight.  I like doing cold starts off line in a "mission".


I did have to laugh.  He as sounding really excited as he had never heard of AH.  Then he went to the website and was ...."Oh you have to pay a subscription.  $15?  .....Every month?"

You got to understand those guys can buy GB cheap on sale an own it.  Subscriptions are a hard sell.


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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2024, 10:23:16 AM »
As I have been chatting up AH on Reddit recently the sub model is the one thing that stops people. I try to explain that the value you get for that is better than spending the same money to buy new IL2 games or a few planes each year. I know in the end one day you own it all and with AH you do not but I don’t plan to take my cartoon airplanes with me when I go lol.

I’m still out there talking it up anyway.
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2024, 10:25:21 AM »
All the games being spoken about I have owned; DCS, IL2-1946, AH, IL2-BoX/GB. DCS is my least favorite and furthest from my real life experience, with AH the closest, IL2-BoX was next then IL2-1946. 1946 has some querks but tones of variety.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #96 on: January 20, 2024, 11:04:54 AM »
Technically, 1946 combines several previous packs and adds some new content, think the original game dates back to 2000-ish.
I'm curious, what pack are you thinking of using? BAT is the latest, but is massive, some 80gb. VP Modpack is older but pretty solid..
BAT has tweaked effects I think, but mostly focus on content...give WXTech's effects packs a try, they are revolutionary.
Graphics Extender mod is amazing, but unfinished on some regards- would recommend trying it though..

This is all in regards to single player offline...If you're looking for online, ultrapack would be the way to go...it is co-op missions, mainly populated by 20 guys on Sundays...so with regard to online play, AH by miles.
Haven't tried il-2 GB though.

I think I'm going to do the Ultrapack. 

I want to do some testing first with the vanilla just so I get a feel of what the pack changes.



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Offline edge12674

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #97 on: January 20, 2024, 11:11:23 AM »
All the games being spoken about I have owned; DCS, IL2-1946, AH, IL2-BoX/GB. DCS is my least favorite and furthest from my real life experience, with AH the closest, IL2-BoX was next then IL2-1946. 1946 has some querks but tones of variety.

Interesting.  You are the first person I have run across that has that opinion.  What does AH do that is closer to real life experience?

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2024, 11:33:40 AM »
As I have been chatting up AH on Reddit recently the sub model is the one thing that stops people. I try to explain that the value you get for that is better than spending the same money to buy new IL2 games or a few planes each year. I know in the end one day you own it all and with AH you do not but I don’t plan to take my cartoon airplanes with me when I go lol.

I’m still out there talking it up anyway.

The problem is, respectfully, it doesn't matter what you think. Or me. Or any of the old farts already here. 

What matters is what your prospective customer thinks.  I think what they are seeing is a subscription as much as their netflix for a game that hasn't been materially updated in 6-7? years?  Hasn't seen a new plane in 15? years?

Imagine if Netflix stopped getting new movies and new shows for years and years.  No new content.  No new Original Series?  They could truthfully say, look at all these shows we already have in the archive.  You can just watch those over again.  Do you think that would hurt their ability to get subscriptions?

A subscription is sellable to get access to constant new content development like the old days of AH or like some MMO.  Its a hard sell just to play a game that is not updated in years other than some player content. 

They expect that situation to just cost a couple of bucks out of the bargain bin, like I bought 1946.  And then they expect to just own it and not pay endless rent.  Shrug.  I'm glad to be proven me wrong if you can generate some new customers.

I didn't have many arguments against that.  The .50 a day thing is not a compelling argument.  The only valid arguments is even in it's current state is still regularly gets 100+ players in one arena most nights.  That is not something they have seen in IL2.  And I made an argument that the historical scenarios are probably an experience they can not currently get in any of the other sims.

He will probably at least give it two weeks, maybe 1 month.  I'll give 1946 about that same amount of time next month.  It will be interesting to compare our notes.

I warned him I had no intention of converting.  I think DCS meets my current needs best for a variety of reasons, but I wanted to fill my knowledge gap on that one so I have a complete comparison of the various options.  If for no other reason so I can explain why DCS is better, IMHO, than 1946.  Or GB for that matter.

But the remaining player count (he did seem to react well to that) and scenarios did seem to make him interested enough to go download.  I have no idea if he would ever switch.  Mainly because of what his initial reaction to the sub.  That is definitely going to make selling him an uphill effort.  But he wanted to try AH for the same reason I am willing to try 1946.  To at least be able to discuss the various competitors intelligently.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 11:36:38 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #99 on: January 20, 2024, 11:36:07 AM »
Player count is usually the second question I get. Most respond favorably to my answer.

Someone got mad at me because I called AH a “war game” and apparently it is not haha. It is though.
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2024, 11:39:46 AM »
Player count is usually the second question I get. Most respond favorably to my answer.

Someone got mad at me because I called AH a “war game” and apparently it is not haha. It is though.

I, myself, also wouldn't describe AH as a "Casual Combat Sim".  I think of WT more along those lines. 

I guess I would best describe it as "Moderate Fidelity Combat Sim".  I think that's fair.

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Offline AKIron

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #101 on: January 20, 2024, 11:49:11 AM »
"Survey" and "Study" sims became a popular way to describe sims decades ago. Still works today.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2024, 11:57:36 AM »
"Survey" and "Study" sims became a popular way to describe sims decades ago. Still works today.

Yeah that's good. 

It also explains a lot of the confusion people have about DCS.  It is a complete different animal that IL2 or AH.  Much more of a study sim. 

Or like Enigma said, DCS is making digital museum replica's of historic aircraft.  That's why the go so crazy on tiny minute details.  When the real copies of those planes are no longer around,  their digital representation will be the closest thing possible to learn what the real machine was like.  That's more important to them currently than filling an arena with moderate fidelity airframes (they already said no more FC3 moderate fidelity modules).  They are striving for a different goal.

The way I explain it to myself, is DCS is a producer of high'ish fidelity simulators to various militaries for training.
They also sell a scrubbed version to the civilian hobby market on the side.


« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 11:59:07 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2024, 11:59:33 AM »
Player count is usually the second question I get. Most respond favorably to my answer.

Someone got mad at me because I called AH a “war game” and apparently it is not haha. It is though.

How could you not consider AH a war game? :rofl
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2024, 12:00:18 PM »
You are quite right about devotion.  My devotion to AH was the biggest factor to overcome.  I had purchased high end HOTAS and VR equipment and felt "forced" to check out the other competing genre programs due to the state of AH.  It was a do-or-die moment for my interest in this hobby, so I purchased MSFS 2020, IL-2, and DCS (at the urging of fellow AH squadmates).  I decided I would devote a majority of my hobby time to each program for one month.  Either I found a home or would sell my flight sim equipment and walk away from the hobby.

My experience with DCS is mirrored by several of the AH squadmates, but we all come at this hobby from different perspectives.  I really enjoy this thread.  Hearing what other players, with AH as the baseline experience, think is enlightening.  I do still hope that HT will post some news and revitalize AH.  I take encouragement that the player numbers are occasionally ticking upward. 

I do apologize if my posts seem like a sales pitch sometimes.  It is not my intention, but rather to share my experience and encourage others to keep an open mind to try out the current "state of the art" sims.  I would really like to see IL-2 and MSFS 2020 provide a free trial, like AH and DCS, so flight sim enthusiasts can make an informed comparison.

Naw you’re good. We all know who the guilty are. Tar and feathers. They use a very passive aggressive play on words of double talk to grab ears. Its systematic between the 3-4. They just did it., to bury reason in carpet bombing the thread. Its a group effort. When one can be predicted ya git em nailed. They think they know everything about everything, they have a very simplex view of marketing. Its a bait and switch wording. Just sit back and watch these two. It will make sense. These two ARE THE problem. You’re not that. They will use this tgread as a catapult. They will attack me next to shadow me credibility. Just watch. We want them gone.

Pretty sure they JO together over this thread.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2024, 12:02:38 PM by Animl-AW »