Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014

[AKIron]

I waited in line almost an hour to vote for Reagan in Nov '80. I'll wait 2 hours come Nov if necessary.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Seems the entire thing is about nato missiles in Ukraine..we want them there and Russia doesn't

The comparison of that scenario with the United States already happened in the 60's and the United States was willing to do the same thing Russia seems to have been forced into and is now the bad guy...



Israel can go pound sand too imo

Eagler

 

You're falling for Pravda again.

Comparing Russia in 2022 to the U.S. in 1962 is comparing apples for oranges.

The U.S. is not pursuing expansionism. Russia has only stopped pursuing expansionism when they're broke, and there's a decent level of strength elsewhere.

I'm no fan of Zelensky. However, Ukraine simply isn't required by any measure to sit defenseless with Russia on their border leering at them with a lustful eye.

Again, I'm no fan of sending unlimited cash to Ukraine with no accountability, no transparency, and no plan for victory. But I'm even less a fan of allowing Russia to take whatever territory they think they're entitled to.

Sorry, allowing Russia and China to take territory and be aggressive, and allowing Iran to fund and spread terrorism, isn't going to resolve the issues with our southern border or the economy. Those are completely different problems.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Well ok, if you really want to know.

Since the start of the history of the USA, she has initiated in 68 countries, let's say, 'hostile incursions'. You can say 'invasions' if you want to be honest.

If we are to count all sovereign nations that the United States has  partaken in 'significant military actions' on the home soil of then shockingly it includes all but three on the planet.

Every nation on the planet except three.

Let that sink in.

What 68 nations has the U.S. invaded in order to take and keep territory, and with no provocation?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Whoops didn't look it up, it's been a while since I've brushed up my ww2 history. There always anti war people though just look at the current university protests.




So you are ignoring the fact that Soros was a nazi whose being an aggressor on Russians border. Got it.

Soros is a problem in multiple nations all over the world. Including being a massive problem here in the US. I'm all for banning Soros, his progeny, and his money from the U.S., and removing anyone he has given a dime to from any government position.


However, Soros is not a citizen of Ukraine, last I looked, nor is he a government official. I despise him, too. However, his presence or his influence in a nation does not justify invading that nation. Otherwise, World War III would have long since erupted.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Soros was 14 when made to work for the Nazis. Saw an interview in which he was asked if he had pangs of guilt for helping the Nazis take the Jews possessions. He said he did not. Who here wouldn't feel guilt for collaborating with the murderers of millions of their own people even if they were coerced at 14?

My opinion of the guy is well known. A long drop from a short rope has long been in order for him.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I never cease to be amazed how many Americans find a decency in Putin. Guess they think 5th story windows, airplanes shedding wings and
novichok are all just stories.

And a disjointed Cesar Sayoc innuendo vilifies George Soros for life.

I find no redeeming qualities in Putin. It's pretty bizarre that so many people despise one or another person in U.S. government so much that they think Putin is the good guy.....

[mechanic]

What 68 nations has the U.S. invaded in order to take and keep territory, and with no provocation?

You're kidding, right?







-----> HERE is a comprehensive list of US military occupation globally. In what reality does this not constitute territorial expansion?




Comparison with Russian invasions through all her history:




Keep in mind, Russia is over 850 years old. America just under 250 years old.


Now just to highlight that I'm not just trying to bash 'Murica. Britain's invasions:



Naughty Britain. No! Bad Britain. Sit.


The problem with objective discussion is that the human psyche has an immune system much the same as it's biological counterpart. People hear something they don't want to accept. Despite the overwhelming evidence. The immune system kicks in to protect our fragile minds from collapsing under the weight of just how monumentally stupid and immature we all are as a species.

It is absolutely right to condemn the war in Ukraine. We should condemn all murder. No one with any sense is trying to justify a war. Any war.

But if we intend to take an interest in these subjects then it is essential to lose our national bias and try to look at things objectively.


Objectively speaking, NATO has been expanding eastwards for 80 some years now. NATO was created to directly combat a supposed Russian threat. That stupid woman went to an important meeting and publicly stated the aim of bringing Ukraine into the organisation that threatens Russian sovereignty more than any other on the planet. Provocation that no self respecting nation would take on the chin. USA would not accept that, UK would not accept that. Russia does not accept it. Obviously there are a multitude of complex systems that also contribute to conflicts globally.

[Spikes]

You're kidding, right?

(Image removed from quote.)

Can you show on the map where the US possesses territory acquired from a military invasion?

[Busher]

Can you show on the map where the US possesses territory acquired from a military invasion?

Wow, the US invaded Canada? Did they say they were sorry?

[mechanic]

Can you show on the map where the US possesses territory acquired from a military invasion?

I posted a link to the map showing the global coverage of US military bases. Looks like quite a lot of territory to me. But if we will argue that 'military presence is for your own safety, do not be alarmed'... we can always go back to the original invasion



It's not important. What's important (to me) is that we can be objective when discussing geo-politics

[Spikes]

TIL that having agreed upon military bases in various countries is the equivalent of a full-scale military invasion of a sovereign nation.

[mechanic]

I know mate, we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil. Indoctrination.

[rabbidrabbit]

I know mate, we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil. Indoctrination.

Who besides you actually said "we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil" that you are arguing against?  It sure looks like you made up an over exaggerated narrative to pitch your tent on.  I never believed we are 100% the "good guys" and every ones else is evil.  Nations, like people are a constant conflict and confluence of interests and by that very nature 100% good and 100% evil rarely exists.  What does exist and you conveniently ignore is that some acts are much more good for people and some are much more evil. 

I pay attention many Chinese , Russian and even Soros aligned propaganda outlets and the things you say are pretty well aligned with all of them.  I'm sure that is not indoctrination.

[Eagler]

Savage

Just trying to confirm here that Ukraine was going to sign an agreement to keep nato out of its country but was told not to and thus the war started...

Not a putin fan, not a fan of anyone these days really..but I care a rats arse if we have missiles in Ukraine..it's not worth all of this imo

I just don't see an end to this as there isn't nor ever has been an exit plan...seems we like to jump into things without thinking them through..20 years in Afghanistan for absolutely nothing for example

Eagler

[rabbidrabbit]

Savage

Just trying to confirm here that Ukraine was going to sign an agreement to keep nato out of its country but was told not to and thus the war started...

Not a putin fan, not a fan of anyone these days really..but I care a rats arse if we have missiles in Ukraine..it's not worth all of this imo

I just don't see an end to this as there isn't nor ever has been an exit plan...seems we like to jump into things without thinking them through..20 years in Afghanistan for absolutely nothing for example

Eagler

I'm not aware of a material discussion that would have resulted in UA signing an agreements before the war started.  Just about anyone serious took Putin's claims re NATO just as seriously as his claims that UA was run by a jewish Nazis empire run by Nato.  These were Russian IO talking points to justify the invasion that was put in motion over a year previously.