Author Topic: player ethos in the bucket  (Read 4421 times)

Offline CptTrips

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #105 on: September 06, 2026, 02:49:23 PM »
If you think about it, an AI type of feedback/strategy suggestion could in effect be used to orchestrate game play overall. Suggesting to people which bases should be defended or attacked. It's not hard limiting things but kind of directing the game flow

And yeah, have it explain all of the features and systems and whatever. A lot of exciting possibilities.

He could setup a local Ollama server (for security and avoiding token costs) and train it on the code and other documents(Maybe some of the experienced players could volunteer as model trainers).
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #106 on: September 06, 2026, 02:49:52 PM »
Now that I am updating again the plan is to implement a Max # of fields one country can capture from another.

HiTech

Thanks HT.

The man is adjusting the game for the negative effects of dweebery and the self-absorbed.
Enough is enough. It’s out of hand.
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Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #107 on: September 06, 2026, 02:51:03 PM »
He could setup a local Ollama server (for security and avoiding token costs) and train it on the code and other documents(Maybe some of the experienced players could volunteer as model trainers).

Or you could be quiet with your failed pompous suggestions
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Offline -gg-

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #108 on: September 06, 2026, 02:59:16 PM »
Thanks HT.

The man is adjusting the game for the negative effects of dweebery and the self-absorbed.
Enough is enough. It’s out of hand.

I don't think it's because people are dweebs or self-absorbed that they go after the easy bases and targets. HT is trying to balance the game, but it's not because people are selfishly trying to kill someone else's fun. People will naturally try to take easy bases and they will naturally try to have an advantage over someone else.

It's just a game and people are only playing it to have fun. I personally don't feel like I have to play any certain way for someone else's benefit. I'll happily vulch someone a hundred times if they let me and I'll be laughing and having fun doing it. That rarely happens for me though.

I let myself get vulched in a tank about 16 times in a row the other night. I wasn't mad - I was trying to get out of a camped GV hanger and I had fun trying.

Some people get mad at the way the game goes  - hordes or whatever. It's not some orchestrated thing people do to try to ruin the game. It's just people playing the game.

HT is trying to balance things - but it's not like people are out there trying to ruin the game.






« Last Edit: September 06, 2026, 03:01:22 PM by -gg- »
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #109 on: September 06, 2026, 04:29:33 PM »
Now that I am updating again the plan is to implement a Max # of fields one country can capture from another.

HiTech

I love AI :banana:

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« Last Edit: September 06, 2026, 05:38:40 PM by Dadtallica »
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Offline Mol

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #110 on: September 06, 2026, 05:20:14 PM »
Posted in error
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #111 on: September 06, 2026, 07:46:53 PM »
Now that I am updating again the plan is to implement a Max # of fields one country can capture from another.


Interesting.  So if the Bishops, as a wild example, have captured all that they can capture from the Knights (another example)...then...they would have to fight the Rooks to accomplish anything, or simply defend against a Knight (or Rook) counterattack.

Could be fun, especially for we mercenaries.

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Offline Badboy

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #112 on: September 06, 2026, 10:07:58 PM »
Some isolated quotes:

Quote
  • But some choose to play it in ways that doesn’t allow others to play the way they like.
  • That’s where the anger comes from.
  • They prevent the fun of others.
  • You have rights only until it impedes the rights of others.
  • Others want to be able to play the way they choose too. Because when they can’t they leave. It’s that simple.
  • When you spend more time in the MA you’ll start to notice irritating patterns.

Those are good points points but those things are hardwired into the game.

That sentiment was expressed very early in the evolution of the game. I'm thinking of Jonathan Baron’s 1999 article “Glory and Shame: Powerful Psychology in Multiplayer Online Games”, which referenced Air Warrior. The article explores how glory and shame work in online gaming, their consequences, and how they influence the culture that develops within a game. It describes something that seems particularly relevant here.

Baron argues that, in competitive online games, “glory is achieved at the price of shaming others.” He specifically discusses multiplayer air combat games where kills are publicly announced, identifying both victor and vanquished. That is exactly what our text buffer does. When you kill someone, everybody sees who killed whom. Your success is therefore not private: your glory is somebody else's publicly recorded defeat. The two go together.

The same principle extends beyond individual kills. To win the war we must take other players' bases, achieve local numerical superiority, destroy their equipment and resources, and generally make it harder for them to fight back. Our success necessarily means players on the other side are losing something.

So, expressed rather bluntly, a large part of the competitive structure of the game amounts to pissing off as many enemy players as possible while preventing them from doing the same to you. You prevent them from playing the way they like, they sometimes get frustrated and angry.

That does not mean players set out with the intention of annoying other people. They are simply trying to win. But winning involves killing enemy players in front of an audience, taking their bases, destroying resources such as hangars and field guns, and using superior numbers, strategy, tactics or teamwork to prevent them achieving their objectives. You prevent them from doing what they want and you do it so everyone can see.

Putting other players on the receiving end of defeat and loss is therefore not an accidental side effect of victory. It is built into the process by which victory is achieved. Whether any particular player actually gets pissed off by it is another matter, but that some will is an almost inevitable consequence of the requirements for victory.

Baron points out that this can have a serious downside. In multiplayer air combat games the levels of glory and shame can become so high, particularly for new players, that many simply don't stay.

That doesn't mean every player is motivated by glory and shame. People play for combat, skill, teamwork, immersion, flying particular aircraft and plenty of other reasons. But the competitive achievement system itself is fundamentally adversarial: success for one player or side is produced by imposing defeat, loss or frustration on another.

Glory and shame therefore have a powerful effect on game dynamics, player relationships and, inevitably, some of the dialogue we see here and on Channel 200.

That raises an interesting design problem: how do you preserve enough glory and competitive consequence to make winning meaningful without allowing the corresponding shame and frustration to drive players away?

Baron does offer some answers, particularly protecting new players and designing games so that different kinds of players can make useful contributions. We already have attempts at balancing mechanisms here: training for newcomers, restrictions on aircraft and vehicle availability for larger sides, and so on. But all of them have costs. Restrictions frustrate players on the larger side. Being overwhelmed by superior numbers frustrate players on the smallest side, particularly when the imbalance happens at regular daily intervals. Training cannot make a new player competitive with an experienced one quickly enough to prevent many from leaving before becoming hooked.

It is a difficult balance because conflict and frustration are not unfortunate things that occasionally intrude into the game. They are consequences of the way competitive success is created. If I shoot you down, capture your base, destroy your equipment or prevent you achieving your objective, I have succeeded precisely because you have failed. Making those successes and failures visible to everybody adds to the glory and shame.

So perhaps saying “the object of the game is to piss off the enemy” is deliberately crude, but there is a serious point behind it. Nobody needs to be trying to upset anybody. We are simply trying to win. It just happens that many of the things we have to do to win are exactly the things most likely to frustrate the people trying to stop us.

Perhaps the real design challenge is not to remove glory and shame, because doing that would remove much of what makes victory and defeat matter. It is to keep them in balance: enough glory to make success rewarding, without so much shame that defeat stops being fun and players decide they would rather play something else.

But some degree of shame, disappointment and frustration is probably unavoidable in a genuinely competitive game. If one player's success necessarily requires another player's failure, those emotions cannot be eliminated entirely without also removing much of what makes the competition meaningful.

So part of the solution may not be trying to design them out of the game, but helping players put defeat in perspective, cope with it, learn from it and come back wanting another go.

That has always worked for me.

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Offline hazmatt

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #113 on: September 07, 2026, 01:37:50 AM »
because doing that would remove much of what makes victory and defeat matter. It is to keep them in balance: enough glory to make success rewarding, without so much shame that defeat stops being fun and players decide they would rather play something else.

So part of the solution may not be trying to design them out of the game, but helping players put defeat in perspective, cope with it, learn from it and come back wanting another go.


This makes sense to me and I have seen examples of it in some of the games I play/played. One of the better ones has fighter combat that those with that skill set while at the same time offering opportunities to those who might not have the great air combat skills skills to attack ai or to fly ground attack missions against ai or bomber missions for the most misguided. I really think there's something to having multiple options allowing them to put defeat in perspective.
Good write up.

Offline Animl-AW

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #114 on: September 07, 2026, 09:04:32 AM »
Good writing Badboy. Objective POV.

Seeing how I’ve flown basically 37 yrs with no AI I strictly oppose it.

It has become normalized in other games to fill gaps. But it is not true MMP. My interest would fade. I’m not alone on that.

It won’t solve current problems. IMO.

I think if Icon dar can drive many out AI would be worse. We don’t have a buffer to cover mistakes.

So far, limiting how many bases a country can take looks good on paper, lets see how it actually falls in place.

Baby steps.

I’d like to get past the small beans and see maybe new terrain and town tiles and damage model animations. Yet gave to be careful not to go too far and count some out. We have no buffer for any bad change.

Slipping back into subject
GBs are going to happen. It’s when it’s always against one country nightly it causes great harm. I watch those log-offs. The numbers that log would have put us into CM.

Last night, the table finally flipped on the rook GBers, first thing they did was whine to me they are getting it. I’m a hypocrite <blank stare>. Yea, once or twice a month you get it and you lose your mind, think how pissed you’d be almost every night. Not listening to it. Swallow your own meds.

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Offline nrshida

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #115 on: September 07, 2026, 01:40:03 PM »
The present system doesn't address the primary problem which is a huge concentrated imbalance. I never saw 324-36-24 country disposition when the game had a lot of players, and ENY was likely designed but 27-3-2 was quite common for me in Euro-daytimes when I last looked.

Game needs a mechanism to spread out the massively over-populated side such as capping equipment and resources per base in a dynamic calculated manner or some other adaptive mechanism. That's even faithful to real wars - equipment is always finite. Don't think ENY even zone-based or perks would solve it. 3 x ubernoobs in P47D-11s are as much trouble as 1 F4U-4 stick who knows what he's doing. Haven't even addressed radar yet, Lilmak seems to have that issue covered.

Forcing side-switching is never going to work when people fly with friends at the same time of day most days of the week or have learned to who know following certain organised squads let them pick up scraps of 'food'. You can watch the log-out timings to infer that. It's just the nature of most humans to be loyal to an arbitrary group.

If HiTech does go further enriching the ground war with players from other platforms then deepening the strategic possibilities of activities might be a good idea. It's pretty simplistic and abstract presently.

Balance of the different gameplay modes / opportunities is what is lacking not trying to balance numbers of players. If the Bish horde want to endlessly roll bases like Energizer Bunnies every morning in exactly the same way for years then that's their bag (/issue). If I find defending perpetually results in a 5, 7 or even 9-on-1 the hard way, plus a slice of smack-talk for even trying and it's NEVER rewarding - then I'm going to conclude the MA is no longer for me and do other hobbies. Ask me how I know.

It isn't about trying to force others into a certain gameplay which suits you, the issue is creating an environment which allows other gameplay modes to some extent.
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Offline Randy1

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #116 on: September 07, 2026, 02:03:17 PM »
I have seen all three countries fight against common sense on different occasions. 

Offline -gg-

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #117 on: September 07, 2026, 02:20:04 PM »
I'll tell you that last night when I was on there were low numbers of course. It was like 2:00 a.m. Pacific time. But the rooks and the bishops had a battle going on in the North East part of the map that I couldn't even get to. I mean part of the problem is the maps. When you can't get to a fight.

It would be cool if they were some dispersed bases in locations around the maps that would assure that anybody could get to a fight if they wanted to. Non-capturable basis.

But people are going to always go for the easy targets. Especially the milk runners that just want to bomb and take over bases at night when no one's on. That's what I wanted to do last night was just to go after some of those guys but I couldn't even get to them. So eventually I did get a pony with drop tanks and headed that way but it's just so ridiculously long to get over there and then you have no radar or anything and then once you get over there you're kind of screwed trying to get back. And it's just not fun.

So I logged off not being able to do anything about what was going on on the map. Not able to engage at all with anybody.


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Offline Randy1

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #118 on: September 07, 2026, 02:21:50 PM »
Now that I am updating again the plan is to implement a Max # of fields one country can capture from another.

HiTech

I like this Max capture plan.   

Would you consider both max capture per country and a max loss per country.  As an example, no country could capture no more than 25% of one of the other countries, and no one country could lose any more than say 60% of their own bases?    It could be of the two capture methods, the best maybe the max loss per country may offer low player countries the best protection.

Offline CptTrips

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Re: player ethos in the bucket
« Reply #119 on: September 07, 2026, 02:37:16 PM »
I like this Max capture plan.   

Would you consider both max capture per country and a max loss per country.  As an example, no country could capture no more than 25% of one of the other countries, and no one country could lose any more than say 60% of their own bases?    It could be of the two capture methods, the best maybe the max loss per country may offer low player countries the best protection.

I'm curious, how would that work?

Would you bomb the crap out of everything and the white flag just won't raise? 
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