AFK ENY - unintended consequences: fix = timer change

[Shane]

Ok, the new AFK not counting towards ENY update has been producing unintended (?) consequences with the incentives being stay logged on instead of logging out.

I think it can be attributed to the 5 minute timer being too short.  It should consider being increased 30 minutes to an hour, so the effects aren't as immediately manipulatable.

1. Instead of hurting their own side, AFK players now actively penalize the other side.  People can simply walk away leaving game open (for 5 minutes or even hours) and keeping ENY up (or down.)   The below screenshot - why are Rooks under ENY? Because for 5 minutes someone went to check their emails?




2.  AFK still benefit from war win perks - why?

[The Fugitive]

1. I dont understand the issue. The Rooks have ENY because the have 14% non-afk players than the Bish If the two afk players come back, the ENY would go up. From what I understand as soon as an afk player makes any input they are no longer afk and couunt toward the percentage for ENY.

2. perk points while afk has always been a thing. It is most likely how the tower sitting started back in the day when we all sucked and it was much harder to get perk points.

[Shane]

1. I dont understand the issue. The Rooks have ENY because the have 14% non-afk players than the Bish If the two afk players come back, the ENY would go up. From what I understand as soon as an afk player makes any input they are no longer afk and couunt toward the percentage for ENY.

2. perk points while afk has always been a thing. It is most likely how the tower sitting started back in the day when we all sucked and it was much harder to get perk points.

1. 5 minutes is all it takes to be considered AFK - so for a short window their AFK impacts another side.  Checking your email, or whatever = eny effect on active players. IIRC it also applies to in-flight, say a bomber on long climb out is not counted for eny as long as they don't input anything. 

2. It's easily manipulated with a such a short window. Case in point, instead of some morning Jokers having to eat it and go sit on knit/rooks to lower bish eny to get access to better planes for the reset (and no win perks), now all they have to do is go AFK a short time and still benefit from the win perks.

https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,412833.msg5474896.html#msg5474896

Let's take a look at that example I posted above.  Total player and in-flight numbers are pretty balanced, yet ENY.  What are you struggling to grasp about this situation being  in that 2-3 players being "AFK" has such an impact?   Wait til people learn how to fine tune this tactically.

[-gg-]

It would be cool if ENY was specific to the plane type or vehicle type. In other words bombers, fighters, gvs, attack, etc.  all separately calculated..

For instance, if one side has way more bombers than both sides up, ENY kicks in for bombers only.

Maybe have autopilot disengage after 5 minutes so people have to actively monitor their flying. I'm not sure what the equivalent would be in GVs.

A lot of these problems, in my opinion, arise from the numbers being so low and the system kicking in. It makes the system easily manipulated by just a few players.

Before I was saying that maybe it shouldn't be even kicking in until at least 100 players were online. But I'm thinking it would be close to that number or a little bit higher. Maybe 120 players online before the system even kicks in at all.

And ultimately, I just don't like it at all any of it.... But at the very least it needs to be looked at because it's just damaging too many people's game experience. Whether people come here and talk about it or admit it or not, it really does piss people off when they can't fly the planes they want to fly and being placed at a disadvantage against players who are very skilled and just end up tearing you apart because you can't compete against the plane that they are in.. And doubly so when it's possibly being manipulated.

[-gg-]

Or like somebody mentioned before. ENY by sector.

Some guy AFK with bombers 20 sectirs away from anything probably shouldn't be affecting ENY at all .... Or getting the benefit of it



Say for instance there's like 15 people online. At one bomber is hitting the strat
 10 sectore away from anything. Somebody should be able to take up a 163 to intercept them. Or any plane .

Maybe the only time it should take effect is not only when the numbers are at least 100 players online, but also when the numbers are a certain amount in any given quadrant or sector or whatever okay

[Shane]

Before I was saying that maybe it shouldn't be even kicking in until at least 100 players were online. But I'm thinking it would be close to that number or a little bit higher. Maybe 120 players online before the system even kicks in at all.

The times when in-game number of players is more than 100 is a very short prime-time window, and 120 even shorter when it occurs.  In your scenario, ENY is practically removed and would reward off-prime time swarmboi skawds like morning Jokers or overnight Tropic Thunder.

I actually gave thought that maybe ordnance can be ENY'd or perhaps autoswitchers go to the low base number side, regardless of overall numbers, but... unintended consequences, aka, players.

[edit: ENY by sector would be problematic as how would you factor it? Not seeing how that could be calculated?10 players who upped under no present eny affecting the next 5 people upping behind them?]

[Kruel]

Or like somebody mentioned before. ENY by sector.

That seems logical.

[-gg-]

The times when in-game number of players is more than 100 is a very short prime-time window, and 120 even shorter when it occurs.  In your scenario, ENY is practically removed and would reward off-prime time swarmboi skawds like morning Jokers or overnight Tropic Thunder.

I actually gave thought that maybe ordnance can be ENY'd or perhaps autoswitchers go to the low base number side, regardless of overall numbers, but... unintended consequences, aka, players.

[edit: ENY by sector would be problematic as how would you factor it? Not seeing how that could be calculated?10 players who upped under no present eny affecting the next 5 people upping behind them?]

Regarding ENY by sector.... I mean yeah if you take off and there's no current penalty but then you push the numbers in that sector to the point where the other side has the disadvantage, then yeah anybody upping behind the original players would have the penalty. And maybe make it so that the one sector where the action is happening that's triggering it also affects the next sectors all around it so people can't just up from the next base over and avoid the penalty. And maybe if the numbers get too far out of whack it can affect two sectors over.

But at least that way it would be affecting the local fight.

I find it kind of rare when we are under the penalty that I am actually in a fight where I am in an area where I'm outnumbering anybody. Usually it's the other way around even though I'm getting the penalty.


But yeah, the low numbers do affect everything and are easily a manipulated. So if the eny didn't kick in until 100 players and there's rarely 100 players, that's not a bad thing in my opinion. Because the numbers are so low anyway that there really isn't a possibility of somebody getting totally gangbanged for very long or at all.

I personally don't want any advantage when it's the other way around either. Like when the other side is under the penalty I don't want to have an advantage over them either.

[Shane]

But yeah, the low numbers do affect everything and are easily a manipulated. So if the eny didn't kick in until 100 players and there's rarely 100 players, that's not a bad thing in my opinion. Because the numbers are so low anyway that there really isn't a possibility of somebody getting totally gangbanged for very long or at all.

Oh sweet child of summer... I suggest you log on between 8-12am est any morning of the week. It's like this every day. And it's generally both bish and knits hitting rooks.  It's not quite as bad between 2-8am est when the swarm belongs to Tropic Thunder vs those few opposing night owls, but still a rough experience.  It's why I get .rpt abused, calling the weebzery out.

See, any changes need to take in the overall experience, not just yours or mine, altho' I play at all hours of the day. I think changing the timer would be the easier fix since it's already implemented and is an adjustable arena setting (currently at 5 mins.)

A longer timer removes a lot of potential immediate manipulation. And without additional changes, this *will* occur; it already is.

[haggerty]

first image shows the intent, not unintended consequence. 
Its 13-17-20, Rooks have 5 ENY because of the 20 to 13, just like they would if those AFK guys logged off.

[Shane]

first image shows the intent, not unintended consequence. 
Its 13-17-20, Rooks have 5 ENY because of the 20 to 13, just like they would if those AFK guys logged off.

But they're not logging off, they're just maybe doing some trivial thing like me sitting here responding while sitting in the tower. It is effecting ENY.  Let me go un-AFK to grab current data. While I (and maybe others) was AFK that ENY may have crept up to 10 for bish, as an example.




Take mornings for example. I used you relating Jokers switching sides to lessen eny for reset (no perks for them; took it for the team!) Now there's no need to do that, just go AFK and come back to a win obtained under less eny.  Nice reward for gaming a "fairness" mechanism.

I think increasing the timer 30 min to an hr is less susceptible to manipulation while still performing its intended function.

[-gg-]

I'll be honest and say that I don't have the brains to figure out how the AFK players are negatively affecting the new eny system.


Seems to me it's a good idea if somebody is actually AFK and not doing anything in an airplane or sitting in the tower that it shouldn't penalize the team that they are on for higher numbers. Isn't that the way it's supposed to work?

I'm not trying to be difficult with your example of Shane I just don't understand.

[JimmyD3]

Shane how many players you think are going to come up with this "gaming the game" technique. First off, it hasn't been a week since the change, I say give it at least 2 tours to  see how it functions. The time setting is in the arena tables so it is adjustable. It may in fact need to be adjusted some  :aokwhere down the line, but for now I say, lets wait and see.

[-gg-]

The other thing about e n y and numbers and all that is that I don't think the numbers in the game should be micromanaged. There's going to be times when you are outnumbered and there's going to be times that you're outnumbering somebody else. Even in a local fight. There might be a squad that logs on for squad night and suddenly they're swarming a base or two. So what? That happens in real life that happens in war that happens in games.

I would rather let that ride. Let the game be the game. You know there are strategies to deal with that. Come in high and start attacking one of their other bases to split them up or whatever. It's actually fun for me to try counter things like that. I would rather be having to deal with being outnumbered then having to deal with being penalized for being on the side that's outnumbered, or being rewarded if on the other end of it.


But going back to the low numbers. Just don't mess with it. Those numbers are so low in your examples that nobody should be worried about which side has more by a few players. Doesn't even make any sense to worry about that.

[Shane]

Shane how many players you think are going to come up with this "gaming the game" technique.

You really said this because you really believe it?  Like with Gina, perhaps check in some weekday mornings around 8-10am cst? 

I could be considered AFK merely by upping and alting from a rear base towards some action.

Here's the easiest way to game it:

While the ftrs/gvs go "AFK" for... 5 mins... 3-4 boxes of nice buffs, say b-24's up from 2 sectors away for the same or even differing targets (b24's wf easy)  by the time they're close in, they've been "AFK" and suppressing ENY for the fighters and gv's that launch when those buffs are closer to target(s.) 

Yay, fighters not under ENY, buffs not under ENY.  Of course, once both waves are in air and active, eny kicks in, but only for those late to the party. 

The mission editor could even facilitate this since you can create two separate missions with differing launch times.  Join mission and wait with no input, "AFK" until launch.

See how easy that was? Especially when it's say, 14 v 4 v 3 where those 14 concentrate on one of the two smaller sides, 14 v 4 or 14 v 3 basically.  3-4 "AFK" on that 14 side can lower the eny enough, fast enough to give them much nicer rides vs those small siders.

I think 30 minutes is a good timer compromise, because that means you're really AFK, not just grabbing a beer or checking your email while in tower or on climbout.