Let me tell a true AH story…

[LilMak]

I’m at my home base with local radar tower destroyed. Enemy has moved in and the darbar is thick. GV dar shows but still a good drive away from the flag. Town is prepped and field is in jeopardy. Zero friendly aircraft in the local area. Runway runs East/West. Town is NW of base. Fire up my trusty Jug and take off to the East in with the intent to get speed and maybe a bit of altitude before turning back towards town. Perhaps I’ll get a lucky suicidal run on troops or M3? Maybe hold the line until some help arrives? I get about 1500 AGL east and well clear of my field guns. Turn north and run into a lone Spit well above me. Work him down and equalize the energy state a bit. Nose up to get a shot off. Take the spit’s wing tip. Start to level out with the intention of letting him go and turn back towards town. Get popped by a Dora. Back in the tower.

You might be saying that my sortie was stupid and that the likely outcome was almost certain death. You’d be correct. I was almost certainly going to die. My issue with my death here was the speed and disadvantage I received that there is no way to counter…AWACS.

Here’s some more information…

We had a friendly tank in town. This invisible tank served as a radar picket for me to see five fighters over town (no goons or bombers present). While it didn’t change my mission profile, it does seem to me that a GV that can’t be found (even by a storch) shouldn’t be able to show me this information. You might be thinking “hey you benefited from AWACS there” and that is partially true. However, a negative effect of that radar tank is to discourage smarter or more score related pilots on my team from even attempting defense because of the apparent hopelessness of the situation. So I’m on my own while my countrymen are clubbing baby seals on the other front or making a sandwich instead.

When I departed I was effectively invisible to the horde over town until I made my turn to the north and encountered the spit. At which time I was more than half a sector away. The spit was still on his perch with his tail towards me (Most likely RTB or texting his girlfriend). He “sees” me and turns around to engage. I needed to work him down because I wasn’t going to get away from him as low as I was. Shortly after getting in icon range of the Spit I noticed the entire town gaggle had turned directly at my position. Not approximately. Not in my general vicinity. All five noses pointed to my exact location. In between a couple missed passes by the spit, I noticed the town had mostly cleared of my radar picket tank. I could no longer see them on my radar but I knew the gaggle was headed my way. To be clear, I was on their “radar” over my own base but I couldn’t see them on my “radar”. Fight progresses and I got my lucky shot on the spit, dipped my nose down to get some speed, and the Dora was laying rounds into me. Wing snaps off and I look back to see... not one, not two, not three, but all five of those planes who were over town a bit ago were on my six.

This would’ve been rare before AWACS. Normally I would’ve had time to reset before I got bounced. Maybe taken the Dora with me before I went down. Or at least put up a good fight. Or made it to town to strafe a grunt before I succumbed to the inevitable. How do I know that? Experience. I’ve been virtual flying since the 90s.

Issues of note:

1- The GV who was showing the town swarmed but can’t even be found is a horrible game imbalance. Players (other than the rare idiots like me) tend to avoid Leroy Jenkins actions. Especially if they can see them before they happen. No one was going to come to the aid of that base because they can see how bad it was in real time. Defense is discouraged by…AWACS.

2- That Spit quite likely would’ve never seen me on his low six if it wasn’t for…AWACS. Not only that but I wouldn’t have known he was initially facing away if it wasn’t for…AWACS. Also, even though those five fighters over town didn’t “see” me, they saw me on the clipboard as soon as the Spit did.

3- Pretend that spit was AFK and headed towards me. Those five fighters over town still instantly know where I am, my direction of flight and whether I’m maneuvering as long as the guy asleep at the wheel is within icon range because of…AWACS. Now imagine that Spit is a tank off my base sleeping under a tree. Same effect only and, even worse, I can’t see him.

4- For the sake of argument we’ll say all five fighters over town were in the Spit’s squad and he had the capability to tell them to come run a train on this low D-40 he was struggling with (not likely but possible). They vector to my exact location and are able to jump me in unison. No need to fan out, no need to look out the window, just follow…AWACS.

5- As a defender I’m alone, low, and outnumbered. Five of the fighters have me on radar as they transition from the town to my fight with the Spit. Five can jump me being guided by radar but I only have eyes on one because of…AWACS.

I’m gonna keep going…

6- Pilots are avoiding combat they think they may not win because of…AWACS

7- Goons are virtually useless because of…AWACS

8- Planes selection is vanilla because you can’t escape…AWACS

9- Few are brave enough to be the tip of the spear in evenly matched groups because of…AWACS.

10- Clouds are nearly pointless because of….AWACS

11- Altitude is much more important because of…AWACS.

12- The chances of a player flying over you and not seeing you is zero because of….AWACS. Even if he doesn’t see you everyone else on his team will because of…AWACS.

13- Bombers are both singled out and can avoid confrontation because of…AWACS.

14- Friendlies don’t help when they can see all 5 enemies trailing because of…AWACS.

15- Limping a damaged plane back home is less likely because of…AWACS.

16- Running home with empty guns yields a much higher likelihood you’ll get cut off because of…AWACS.

17- Picking and avoiding any consequences is infinitely easier because of…AWACS.

18- SA has been relegated to the clipboard because of…AWACS.

19- Cockpit vision? Might as well give everyone F3 because of…AWACS.

20- Fighting or even strategically slowing down a horde is completely thrown off balance because of…AWACS.

Now. You can stick your head in the sand and say that the gang bangs have nothing to do with the ridiculous AWACS radar and a general degradation of the MA but, no matter what you say, it absolutely does. It’s absolute HORSE CRAP. Take it away. Find another way to seek out the enemy.   Maybe try the window instead of the clipboard. It’s the second worst decision I’ve ever seen HT make.

Here’s some settings I think will balance this out.

1. Turn off AWACS and never turn it back on again in flight unless some night fighters appear in game. Then maybe for those aircraft alone. Maybe a PT boat since it has a radar mast?
2. Harden radar towers to 500lbs of ord minimum.
3. Maybe AWACS or something similar in the tower to point players in the right direction like increasing the radar range of the local ring way beyond the ring while you’re not in flight.
4. Darbar refresh rates to as near as instant as possible.

If that’s not enough, because it’s too hard to look out the window without a crutch, consider breaking up darbar into quarters of grids.

But this thing where local hordes get a radar advantage needs to end.

[Eagler]

Just keeping super dar out of the cockpit would be a great start...

I think HT thinks removal of easy dar will chase away more players than it makes happy..

I can't argue that..

Eagler

[LilMak]

Just keeping super dar out of the cockpit would be a great start...

I think HT thinks removal of easy dar will chase away more players than it makes happy..

I can't argue that..

Eagler

Current radar settings ran off a ton of players and boogered the sweet balance of the game. If I’m being honest, I don’t care if changing it runs a few more players off because the game will be better for it and last longer as a result. Defense is being severely discouraged (from the air) by this one setting. The constant gang bang is becoming a real problem and AWACS feeds that. Players are talking the path of least resistance and that is absolutely based on what they see on the clipboard. Most of the tweaks and additions have gone to balancing out defense over the years. Town resupply, 88s, lowering NOE altitudes have been adjusted over the rears to slow (not stop) hordes. AWACS has killed the incentive to even try to fight the current (much smaller) groups. Not all will understand or agree with what I’m trying to say. But consider me the canary in the coal mine. If I cared about score or anything like that, I would’ve never upped from that base in my example. My story is to point out that I was the only one even making an attempt to join combat at a base being attacked. It’s getting increasingly frustrating for me to continue because, nearly every time I try, I get swatted before I can extract fun from the fight.

[TalonX]

I’m at my home base with local radar tower destroyed. Enemy has moved in and the darbar is thick. GV dar shows but still a good drive away from the flag. Town is prepped and field is in jeopardy. Zero friendly aircraft in the local area. Runway runs East/West. Town is NW of base. Fire up my trusty Jug and take off to the East in with the intent to get speed and maybe a bit of altitude before turning back towards town. Perhaps I’ll get a lucky suicidal run on troops or M3? Maybe hold the line until some help arrives? I get about 1500 AGL east and well clear of my field guns. Turn north and run into a lone Spit well above me. Work him down and equalize the energy state a bit. Nose up to get a shot off. Take the spit’s wing tip. Start to level out with the intention of letting him go and turn back towards town. Get popped by a Dora. Back in the tower.

You might be saying that my sortie was stupid and that the likely outcome was almost certain death. You’d be correct. I was almost certainly going to die. My issue with my death here was the speed and disadvantage I received that there is no way to counter…AWACS.

Here’s some more information…

We had a friendly tank in town. This invisible tank served as a radar picket for me to see five fighters over town (no goons or bombers present). While it didn’t change my mission profile, it does seem to me that a GV that can’t be found (even by a storch) shouldn’t be able to show me this information. You might be thinking “hey you benefited from AWACS there” and that is partially true. However, a negative effect of that radar tank is to discourage smarter or more score related pilots on my team from even attempting defense because of the apparent hopelessness of the situation. So I’m on my own while my countrymen are clubbing baby seals on the other front or making a sandwich instead.

When I departed I was effectively invisible to the horde over town until I made my turn to the north and encountered the spit. At which time I was more than half a sector away. The spit was still on his perch with his tail towards me (Most likely RTB or texting his girlfriend). He “sees” me and turns around to engage. I needed to work him down because I wasn’t going to get away from him as low as I was. Shortly after getting in icon range of the Spit I noticed the entire town gaggle had turned directly at my position. Not approximately. Not in my general vicinity. All five noses pointed to my exact location. In between a couple missed passes by the spit, I noticed the town had mostly cleared of my radar picket tank. I could no longer see them on my radar but I knew the gaggle was headed my way. To be clear, I was on their “radar” over my own base but I couldn’t see them on my “radar”. Fight progresses and I got my lucky shot on the spit, dipped my nose down to get some speed, and the Dora was laying rounds into me. Wing snaps off and I look back to see... not one, not two, not three, but all five of those planes who were over town a bit ago were on my six.

This would’ve been rare before AWACS. Normally I would’ve had time to reset before I got bounced. Maybe taken the Dora with me before I went down. Or at least put up a good fight. Or made it to town to strafe a grunt before I succumbed to the inevitable. How do I know that? Experience. I’ve been virtual flying since the 90s.

Issues of note:

1- The GV who was showing the town swarmed but can’t even be found is a horrible game imbalance. Players (other than the rare idiots like me) tend to avoid Leroy Jenkins actions. Especially if they can see them before they happen. No one was going to come to the aid of that base because they can see how bad it was in real time. Defense is discouraged by…AWACS.

2- That Spit quite likely would’ve never seen me on his low six if it wasn’t for…AWACS. Not only that but I wouldn’t have known he was initially facing away if it wasn’t for…AWACS. Also, even though those five fighters over town didn’t “see” me, they saw me on the clipboard as soon as the Spit did.

3- Pretend that spit was AFK and headed towards me. Those five fighters over town still instantly know where I am, my direction of flight and whether I’m maneuvering as long as the guy asleep at the wheel is within icon range because of…AWACS. Now imagine that Spit is a tank off my base sleeping under a tree. Same effect only and, even worse, I can’t see him.

4- For the sake of argument we’ll say all five fighters over town were in the Spit’s squad and he had the capability to tell them to come run a train on this low D-40 he was struggling with (not likely but possible). They vector to my exact location and are able to jump me in unison. No need to fan out, no need to look out the window, just follow…AWACS.

5- As a defender I’m alone, low, and outnumbered. Five of the fighters have me on radar as they transition from the town to my fight with the Spit. Five can jump me being guided by radar but I only have eyes on one because of…AWACS.

I’m gonna keep going…

6- Pilots are avoiding combat they think they may not win because of…AWACS

7- Goons are virtually useless because of…AWACS

8- Planes selection is vanilla because you can’t escape…AWACS

9- Few are brave enough to be the tip of the spear in evenly matched groups because of…AWACS.

10- Clouds are nearly pointless because of….AWACS

11- Altitude is much more important because of…AWACS.

12- The chances of a player flying over you and not seeing you is zero because of….AWACS. Even if he doesn’t see you everyone else on his team will because of…AWACS.

13- Bombers are both singled out and can avoid confrontation because of…AWACS.

14- Friendlies don’t help when they can see all 5 enemies trailing because of…AWACS.

15- Limping a damaged plane back home is less likely because of…AWACS.

16- Running home with empty guns yields a much higher likelihood you’ll get cut off because of…AWACS.

17- Picking and avoiding any consequences is infinitely easier because of…AWACS.

18- SA has been relegated to the clipboard because of…AWACS.

19- Cockpit vision? Might as well give everyone F3 because of…AWACS.

20- Fighting or even strategically slowing down a horde is completely thrown off balance because of…AWACS.

Now. You can stick your head in the sand and say that the gang bangs have nothing to do with the ridiculous AWACS radar and a general degradation of the MA but, no matter what you say, it absolutely does. It’s absolute HORSE CRAP. Take it away. Find another way to seek out the enemy.   Maybe try the window instead of the clipboard. It’s the second worst decision I’ve ever seen HT make.

Here’s some settings I think will balance this out.

1. Turn off AWACS and never turn it back on again in flight unless some night fighters appear in game. Then maybe for those aircraft alone. Maybe a PT boat since it has a radar mast?
2. Harden radar towers to 500lbs of ord minimum.
3. Maybe AWACS or something similar in the tower to point players in the right direction like increasing the radar range of the local ring way beyond the ring while you’re not in flight.
4. Darbar refresh rates to as near as instant as possible.

If that’s not enough, because it’s too hard to look out the window without a crutch, consider breaking up darbar into quarters of grids.

But this thing where local hordes get a radar advantage needs to end.

I’m sensing you aren’t happy with AWACS. 

[AKKuya]

AWACS is just one symptom in the game causing problems.  It's a setting that swings both ways.  It's a tool.

What you are complaining about is how the tool is being used.  This derives from one single aspect.

Each player chooses how to play the game.  You want the change to allow your way of playing.

I agree 100% of what you said.  I'm an experienced player and understand completely.  I believe in a fair game across the board.

Do you have a solution in getting all players from old farts to new scripts to agree and go along with turning AWACS off?

[save]

To add to the criteria : Planes have little chance of creating an altitude advantage, taking off from a field further back without AWACS detection is impossible.

[Randy1]

It is common for a plane to avoid localized dar by flying very low.  Lower than sector dar to make it wwork.  Yak, I think s really skilled in this technique.

I see your point LilMak.  I see Hitech's point.  Sitting on the fence on this one.

[Wiley]

To add to the criteria : Planes have little chance of creating an altitude advantage, taking off from a field further back without AWACS detection is impossible.

As long as there are no enemy within 6k of you, it's still as possible as it was before AWACS.

As to Mak's point, while I think he is belabouring it a bit, I agree with a good bit of what he's saying.  I think the solution is to take it away in flight, leave it in tower.  Get rid of the little planes, make it dots.  I think it's an acceptable compromise to finding the fight and leaving some uncertainty.

Wiley.

[LilMak]

AWACS is just one symptom in the game causing problems.  It's a setting that swings both ways.  It's a tool.

What you are complaining about is how the tool is being used.  This derives from one single aspect.

Each player chooses how to play the game.  You want the change to allow your way of playing.

I agree 100% of what you said.  I'm an experienced player and understand completely.  I believe in a fair game across the board.

Do you have a solution in getting all players from old farts to new scripts to agree and go along with turning AWACS off?

I would argue it does not swing both ways in that the team with more players in the air (or on the ground) has a massively decisive advantage in situational awareness. More planes is more radar coverage. It’s literally penalizing any player that is outnumbered. If you come into contact with one of them EVERY enemy can see you and you can only see the player in icon range. That advantage is exponential for every plane in the sky or vehicle on the ground. 1v1 the odds are even. 2v1 they collectively have 100% more combined SA. Then when you increase it to 3v1, 4v1 and so on it’s horribly lopsided.

Taking it away does nothing to how anyone plays other than not giving them information they shouldn’t have without looking out the cockpit. Yes it’s a tool. But it’s a tool that cannot be countered. There’s no radar tower to destroy. There’s no way for an outnumbered group to effectively even the playing field. Whoever is outnumbered within a sector or two is at an extreme disadvantage. If it’s 6 on 1 like my example 5 players are making decisions about my presence before I even know they exist. There’s no fog for them but I’m effectively blind. They’re climbing, vectoring, avoiding, setting up attacks, all while I’m preoccupied with one of their countrymen. I can’t see what they’re doing but they can see what I’m doing. Even if I break away before they get there and they still have me on radar the whole time until I can extend beyond the Spit’s icon range. If players absolutely NEED to see aircraft on radar to play the game. Then just make radar towers impervious to bombs or turn it on globally so everyone can see everyone all the time.

If the goal is to just make me a target dummy to get repeatedly pounded into the dirt to the point I just leave to join my country horde or log instead. It’s working. If players want targets to shoot at (me) I suggest we make some adjustments.

[-gg-]

can we distil the story down to a few words?

[The Fugitive]

can we distil the story down to a few words?

AWACS bad!

[Wiley]

can we distil the story down to a few words?

AWACS b-

AWACS bad!

Yes!

Wiley.

Wiley.

[-gg-]

AWACS bad!

 

[hazmatt]

But this thing where local hordes get a radar advantage needs to end.

I and many others agree with you LilMak. This was one of the things that lowered my "fun" in the game before the final straw came.

The issue seems to be that HT has a select group that he takes game advice from. If you can figure out who one of these people are and get them to pitch it to him you might get some traction because at this point I fear we're beating a dead horse.

[LilMak]

can we distil the story down to a few words?

Shortest I can do: AWACS is bad for the game.