Corkscrew LW.

[Hangtime]

SO I take it a Split S is now considered gaming?

Aside from just plain makin toejam up as yah go along to help fan the flames Sachs, why not re-read the thread.

Nobodys squeaking about a split s.

What we're squeaking about is the diddlyin fishy-floppy gamey bellybutton stick yanking and warp flogging being perpetrated by dwezils and idiots. It's not just FW's.. its all planes that do this, but it so happens that the 190's high roll rate make propogation of this panzie assed gamey manuver even easier. Whats even more interesting is the commentary from quality pilots that prefer LW rides that have noted it, and deplore its use just like I do.

However, if you choose to jerk and twich and flog and yank and tromp and twirl till somebody else comes to save yer worthless hide, hey go right the diddly ahead. I'm sure you'll have earned the respect you so rightiously deserve from your adversary in the process.

[Bullethead]

there is no such thing as a 'warp roll'.  there is no warp as in net delay stuff.  the problem is entirely at your end and it is entirely in your power to fix it.

ah has a strange phenomenon where its frame rates look smooth as glass in all situations until you get in close on the nme's ass.  then the stutter starts, but just enough that it's not really noticeable as such unless you really look closely for it.  it happens even with relatively 'calm' planes and makes it appear that you can't keep your sights on target, even tho it still looks smooth.  if the plane is manuevering violently, such as a rolling fw, however, the stutter becomes more noticeable and dweebs mistake it for 'warps'.  

i believe the root cause of this close-in frame rate problem is that at 200-300 yards, just when most people are about to shoot, some level of increased detail becomes visible on planes.   so you get an fps hit there you don't see otherwise.

the way to fix this problem is to change your video settings.  tone things down a bit.  guess what?  no more 'warp' rolls and also easier tracking shots on other targets.  so quit whining about planes and pilots and either tweak your settings or get a more macho computer.

note:  in the so-called fw 'warp roll', there is no stick-stirring involved.  you just hold the stick to 1 side and slightly forward so you do 0 or -1 g barrel roll.  this confuses your apparent direction of travel, causing nme to use improper lead (hopefully) if they have solved their fps problems.  the idea is to gain separation and speed while being hard to hit.  fws can pull away from non-shooting dweebs in spits this way, with a bit of luck.

to those who continue to whine about 'warps' and 'stick stirring', when it's their own damn fault for not curing their fps problems, i say 'bite me'

[Apache]

I really didn't intend to start a flame fest. As someone pointed out, the title is in error. It certainly isn't just LW however, the 190 is the 1 that is most prominent to me.

Hangtime said what I tried to say. Intentional flip flop, twisty BS to induce warp.

I'll repeat myself. I have fought against many LW that are excellent. Hazed, Urchin, StSanta, Grun to name just a few. I have never, ever seen them do what I'm talking about and I em.

[Apache]

Originally posted by Bullethead
there is no such thing as a 'warp roll'.  there is no warp as in net delay stuff.  the problem is entirely at your end and it is entirely in your power to fix it.

ah has a strange phenomenon where its frame rates look smooth as glass in all situations until you get in close on the nme's ass.  then the stutter starts, but just enough that it's not really noticeable as such unless you really look closely for it.  it happens even with relatively 'calm' planes and makes it appear that you can't keep your sights on target, even tho it still looks smooth.  if the plane is manuevering violently, such as a rolling fw, however, the stutter becomes more noticeable and dweebs mistake it for 'warps'.  

i believe the root cause of this close-in frame rate problem is that at 200-300 yards, just when most people are about to shoot, some level of increased detail becomes visible on planes.   so you get an fps hit there you don't see otherwise.

the way to fix this problem is to change your video settings.  tone things down a bit.  guess what?  no more 'warp' rolls and also easier tracking shots on other targets.  so quit whining about planes and pilots and either tweak your settings or get a more macho computer.

Disagree emphatically. We had warp rolls in WB. In 2d where video settings really didn't mean squat. Was 190's mostly as well.

[Bullethead]

Originally posted by Apache


Disagree emphatically. We had warp rolls in WB. In 2d where video settings really didn't mean squat. Was 190's mostly as well.

wb was totally different animal.  that game had severe fe problem with drawing changes in nme attitude.  would show planes moving belly first while spinning like pinwheel around a wingtip.  would also show planes making quick 90^ roll as rolling 180^ and then back 90^, by which time they might have rolled the other way again in real life and fe got very confused.

again, no warping involved.  but in wb was exploitation of fe problem.  in ah, it's your own damn fault.

[air_reaper]

Said it before and will say it again. The anti stick stirring code needs to be tighter. Let the fukin idiots piss and moan.

[Kweassa]

I am getting the feeling the two different sides are talking about something different here. As for me, I don't understand what 'warp roll' is, never seen it, and considering it isn't often I engage 190s that isn't surprising.

 So, what exactly is a warp roll?

 From what I understand by posts above, it seems it is one of these two things:

a) the defender wildly shakes his stick left and right, almost near the verge of getting that "don't move your stick so rapidly", so on the attacker's FE, something goes wrong concerning net lag and it looks like the target is performing weird moves..

b) the defender does fast series of rolls counter to the direction the attacker is moving, so that the attacker rarely ever gets a chance to fire a good shot.

[Apache]

Originally posted by Bullethead


wb was totally different animal.  that game had severe fe problem with drawing changes in nme attitude.  would show planes moving belly first while spinning like pinwheel around a wingtip.  would also show planes making quick 90^ roll as rolling 180^ and then back 90^, by which time they might have rolled the other way again in real life and fe got very confused.

again, no warping involved.  but in wb was exploitation of fe problem.  in ah, it's your own damn fault.

I can't seem to locate the "reduce high roll rate aircraft" video settings button. I assume there must be one since these A/C are the only ones that warp on my FE in the matter of which I speak.

Then again, it could be your hypothosis is illogical?

[Bullethead]

Originally posted by Apache


I can't seem to locate the "reduce high roll rate aircraft" video settings button. I assume there must be one since these A/C are the only ones that warp on my FE in the matter of which I speak.

Then again, it could be your hypothosis is illogical?

i just love it when dweebs are so set in their misconceptions.  they refuse to question themselves and thus never see their mistakes.  hence, more kills for me

look.  i'll try and make this simple....  warps come from the internet, somewhere between you and the host and the other players.  but the internet doesn't give a rip what the nme plane is doing.  to the internet, it's all just a stream of data to be moved along, regardless of whether the nme is flying level or maneuvering.  and all the data does is ride along.  it contains no commands that tell some random part of the internet carefully and sneakily to introduce warps in the data dealing with only the particular nme plane you're after.  

in sum, warps are totally independent of what planes do (barring old aw2 cheats like hitting ctrl-alt-del and then canceling that window).  if there was an in-game control that allowed warp on command, you'd see level buffs doing it.  and if you were getting real warps, you'd be seeing beacon flashes and other planes warping in the distance.

now, in the particular case of rolling fws...  this cannot be a real warp for the above reasons.  there is no setting in fws to make them appear 'warpy'.  hence, the problem is in your fe, specifically it's drawing of the fw as it does a simple barrel roll that is neither shanken nor stirred.  problems with the smoothness of high speed objects, or objects changing aspect rapidly, are frame rate problems.  and this particular frame rate problem only occurs at short range, when more details of the target appear and these details take up a relatively large part of the screen, so they require more pixel changes.

so instead of looking for a 'roll rate limiter', i suggest you lower your resolution, switch to 16-bit, and/or disable palletized textures.  limit frame rate to 45 if you've got a p4.  those video options really do exist.  also make sure you've got the latest video drivers and use cacheman.  those last 2 things cured all fps problems for me and allowed me to go back to 1600x1200x32bit with none of the so-called 'warp rolls'.

[Tac]

Stick stirring is a way that some pilots have found to be the perfect defensive.

Kweassa: Its the 1st effect in your list. the second one is a perfectly sound ACM manouver.

"a) the defender wildly shakes his stick left and right, almost near the verge of getting that "don't move your stick so rapidly", so on the attacker's FE, something goes wrong concerning net lag and it looks like the target is performing weird moves.."

Yes, those weird moves I oftenly see as the plane flying in midair with sudden loss of speed, spinning wildly on its own axis while flying in the OPPOSITE direction of its roll. Hitting that spinning plane is useless since its just a ghost, the real plane has moved either left or right, above or below you.. and you lose that engagement very quickly.

I dont believe its FPS hit that causes it, the stick stir effect can be seen from far  and from extreme close range, if it was fps it'd happen constantly at a predictable range. And its not lag either, lag behaves instantly in a ZIP, it doesnt leave planes doing fluid, odd manouvers. Even a plane that discoes does not behave like a stick stirrer.

I also believe that the pilot should also be modeled into the game. I really dont think a pilot can pull 6'gs and strain himself pulling/pushing a ww2 controls in his fighter and not get exhausted... or be able to snap his neck 360 in the middle of a 7g rolling loop.

[Toad]

Widewing, there's no "g-effect" as it is generally understood here on the BBS and in the AH game. That is, no grayouts/blackouts/redouts.

Yeah, I'll agree there's some minimal g in an aileron roll... but I'll still maintain that it wouldn't be enough to bother programming into this context.

[Toad]

Well, I've certainly seen masters of the "floppy fish". Not every one does it though and usually, when you do eventually shoot them down, it's a name you've seen before doing the same maneuvers.

Using Bulletheads explanation though, wouldn't I see almost everyone do it when I get close?

However, I'm openminded enough that I'm certainly going to try Bullet's suggestions and see if I notice a difference.

Bullet, for those of us not so technologically advanced, how about a simple explanation of what cacheman is going to do for us in AH and what else it might effect outside of AH? Thx.

[Apache]

Originally posted by Bullethead


i just love it when dweebs are so set in their misconceptions.  they refuse to question themselves and thus never see their mistakes.  hence, more kills for me

look.  i'll try and make this simple....  warps come from the internet, somewhere between you and the host and the other players.  but the internet doesn't give a rip what the nme plane is doing.  to the internet, it's all just a stream of data to be moved along, regardless of whether the nme is flying level or maneuvering.  and all the data does is ride along.  it contains no commands that tell some random part of the internet carefully and sneakily to introduce warps in the data dealing with only the particular nme plane you're after.  

in sum, warps are totally independent of what planes do (barring old aw2 cheats like hitting ctrl-alt-del and then canceling that window).  if there was an in-game control that allowed warp on command, you'd see level buffs doing it.  and if you were getting real warps, you'd be seeing beacon flashes and other planes warping in the distance.

now, in the particular case of rolling fws...  this cannot be a real warp for the above reasons.  there is no setting in fws to make them appear 'warpy'.  hence, the problem is in your fe, specifically it's drawing of the fw as it does a simple barrel roll that is neither shanken nor stirred.  problems with the smoothness of high speed objects, or objects changing aspect rapidly, are frame rate problems.  and this particular frame rate problem only occurs at short range, when more details of the target appear and these details take up a relatively large part of the screen, so they require more pixel changes.

so instead of looking for a 'roll rate limiter', i suggest you lower your resolution, switch to 16-bit, and/or disable palletized textures.  limit frame rate to 45 if you've got a p4.  those video options really do exist.  also make sure you've got the latest video drivers and use cacheman.  those last 2 things cured all fps problems for me and allowed me to go back to 1600x1200x32bit with none of the so-called 'warp rolls'.

By all means, come kill me, lol.

Yeah, I'm familiar with all that net stuff. I kinda have to be. You see, I'm a network engineer so's they learned me that thar net lingo stuff.

You're right Toad. BH's explanation would affect "ALL" a/c, not just the high roll rate aircraft. As I stated before, not all a/c warp on my FE. His theory holds no water.

[AKDejaVu]

Bulltethead.. you are totally off base.

Find out how fast an aircraft's roll rate is.  Find out how often aircraft position is updated.  Find out exactly what is sent pertaining to position (x,y,z coord.. heading... acceleration... control surface positions... speed... orientation... what else?).  Now think about how someone rapidly moving his controls would cause jumpy motion in a rendered aircraft .

Then, and only then, will you be able to get a clue.

AKDejaVu

[Sachs]

Originally posted by Hangtime


Aside from just plain makin toejam up as yah go along to help fan the flames Sachs, why not re-read the thread.

Nobodys squeaking about a split s.

LOL you honestly are a little strung right now.  If that is stirring the thread then you guys have thin skin.  

What we're squeaking about is the diddlyin fishy-floppy gamey bellybutton stick yanking and warp flogging being perpetrated by dwezils and idiots. It's not just FW's.. its all planes that do this, but it so happens that the 190's high roll rate make propogation of this panzie assed gamey manuver even easier. Whats even more interesting is the commentary from quality pilots that prefer LW rides that have noted it, and deplore its use just like I do.

Have yet to see a flopping 190 but I have seen it in other planes, and some by these so called "Quality pilots".  Its a game if you can't kill them when they do it thats your problem.  

However, if you choose to jerk and twich and flog and yank and tromp and twirl till somebody else comes to save yer worthless hide, hey go right the diddly ahead. I'm sure you'll have earned the respect you so rightiously deserve from your adversary in the process.

Your right my hide is worthless, didn't know human skin was selling above 2 dollars these days.  I fly 190's and I fly well lets see all LW aircraft.  I don't use this stick stirring phenom, and where in my post did I say I used it?  Keep using those big swear words  (I hear people like that now).