Author Topic: E vs C  (Read 5126 times)

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #105 on: January 19, 2002, 02:43:46 PM »
So, ra, you prefer the superstition approach instead of the rationalizing down-to-earth approach of the scientists?

At least the scientists actively seek knowledge to improve the world. Most recent discoveries explained things that the scientists of the past described miraculous or the act of God for lack of a better explanation.. Yes, even the scientists are often religious. They're just stubborn enough not to believe a 2000+ year old book when it comes to scientific facts.

If all people in the past would have settled to the BS the church and the priests were spewing to the people, we'd still be at the educational level of the dark ages.

The churches actually collected scientific data in thier own libraries to hide them from other people. Knowledge was bad, and who dared to claim otherwise was burned alive. Most village doctors who used the natural cures on illnesses, herbs etc. were burned as heretic. The ones who stayed quiet or hiding, survived.

Religion, crusades, the church.. They have caused so much EVIL to the human kind that it's completely beyond my understanding why they are let to exist anymore. Nowadays the christian church is luckily somewhat civilized - the problem with the fundamentalism has just moved to Islamic countries.

But if you look in the past, the things the inquisition did were such a crime against humanity that I WISH I could go back in time with a minigun and a heck of a lot of ammo. They oppressed, tortured, mutilated, deceived and cencored whole nations for decades.

Offline ra

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« Reply #106 on: January 19, 2002, 03:28:38 PM »
Mrsid2,

If you read my posts you would see that I don't endorse either, I'm from the 'we don't know' school.  I'm not defending creationism because faith is faith, trying to hold it to any scientific standards is pointless.  I'm just deconstructing evolution, which seems like a psuedo-religious belief to me.  

Just because scientists seek a rational explaination for the existence of life doesn't mean that we have to blindly believe their completely unproven theories.  Why can't the theory of evolution be defended without bringing in a history of the dark ages?  If it is a scientific theory, it should stand independent of man's history.  It is not a scientific theory, it is a rationalistic theory, a kind of superstition.  It blows the 2nd law of thermodynamics away by claiming that random events cause incredibly complex structures (life) to exist.

I think it's interesting that we live on a planet which is virtually infested with life, yet so far any explanation for life's existence requires faith, one way or the other.


ra

Offline hblair

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« Reply #107 on: January 19, 2002, 04:39:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrsid2
Religion, crusades, the church.. They have caused so much EVIL to the human kind that it's completely beyond my understanding why they are let to exist anymore. Nowadays the christian church is luckily somewhat civilized - the problem with the fundamentalism has just moved to Islamic countries.
 


Yeah, and that ol Hitler fella, forgot him, what faith was he now? Atheist you say? How about Stalin? Surely he was a religious fella? Atheist too? Surely not. hmmm. Weren't they responsible for a death or two?

The arguement that Christianity does evil to the world is pure Hogwash. Sure, misled people have done evil things. But to blame it on Christianity is very weak.

Two examples...

>>I go to the Etowah county jail on thursdays every other month now with a couple fellas from church. Why? To try to sell our product to guys who can use it. What does our product do? Well, it'll change your life for the better. Your life won't center around self anymore, it'll center around Christ and helping others. To spread the truth. We help those guys in whatever ways we can. Guys who have been or are on trial for any crime you can think of (literally). They are still welcome to this Christianity product.

>>A few weeks ago our Deacon of Benevolance got up after our Sunday morning service and told the story of a local woman who had taken on the responsibility of raising her neices children, in addition of her own children, four in all. She has no husband, doing this on her on somehow. Well, sometime in early December, her mobile home caught fire, they lost every possesion  they owned but the clothes on their back. Our congregation donated some money at that time to get the kids Christmas. Well, now the family needed some money because she was about to purchase a home. This was after the Sunday morning service, many of the 150 or so people had left. Out of about 35 adult men, there was about $4000 donated right then and there, on the spur of the moment. Sure, she was encouraged to attend with us, but there were no strings attached.

Last time I checked, there were no "Agnostics" on the roll to see the fellas at the jail. As far as I know atheists don't even care about these guys or the lady with the four children. What kind of organized charity works do Atheists do anyway? Oh, you donate to your "cahrity of choice"? That's a lot more convenient huh?

Remember stuff like this when you get on your next anti-Christianity kick.

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #108 on: January 19, 2002, 05:26:35 PM »
How are they on Video Card upgrade needs? I assume the 'ol Ti500 will get old eventually.

I'd visit and even sing the hymns.

badump, bump -cymbolcrash.wave-

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #109 on: January 19, 2002, 05:46:06 PM »
there are a million other 'products' that could do the same thing except yours also causes a division. you tell them that now they are better and saved and the rest of the world is wrong, infected with evil and will go to hell.

how about teaching those jailbirds that if you go around stealing and hurting people then you dont get to play with the rest of us? no need for myticism there just common sense.

if they cant figure it out on their own then they are too weakminded to be in the general population anyway. we have a lot to do and no time for explaining to people why they need to behave they should know by the time they are adults.

the last thing they need is another crutch. and christians didn't corner the market on helping people either. most charities are non religious. i raised my friend's kid for 3 years for no other reason than someone had to.

no need for ghost stories there. no threats of hell, just doin the right thing.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #110 on: January 19, 2002, 06:51:27 PM »
It's a part of human nature that some become more resolute the more they are challenged. We work with people every day that will deny something right in front of them because they don't want to admit they are wrong.

I know I don't hold the key to Mr.Fish's beliefs, or to leading him to God. The best I can do is demonstrate his anger at religion and anyone religious has no bearing on me. It doesn't make me mad, it doesn't even really make me sad because I have the faith to believe that God will teach and reach him ultimately.

No, Christians shouldn't rest until God's work is done. I just don't happen to believe butting heads in a contest of wills and verbage will help here. From what I have seen, the verbage is too practiced, too polished to be off-the-cuff. What good is going through another round of, "You're stupid, your argument is stupid", as if saying it made it so?

Still, the funny thing is the way you frame it, Mr.Fish. If any of us try to talk religion we are proselytizing. If we don't, we are terrible Christians. Interesting trap you've built there...

Offline hblair

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« Reply #111 on: January 19, 2002, 07:26:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
how about teaching those jailbirds that if you go around stealing and hurting people then you dont get to play with the rest of us? no need for myticism there just common sense.


There you  go Mr. Fish. There's something you can do. Go down to your local jail this week, visit the inmates and tell 'em that stuff. You can start one of those huge private charities that do so much work. The "Jail-going straight-talking atheist guys".  :)

BTW, some of those guys were busted for possession. Do you not smoke marijuana? You could also land in the can couldn't you? Do you use "common sense" (as you put it above)? you are very judgemental of people whom you don't know. I hope you can straighten that problem out.

This is starting to turn into a circus. It is clear that the fish isn't going to follow his heart til I show up at his door with a few guys to rough him up. We'll get you to repent alright. What was your address again? ;)

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #112 on: January 19, 2002, 07:51:23 PM »
you didnt drive over 55 when the law was set to 55 right?

now you do because the speed limit is higher?

was it immoral before? is it immoral now or does its morality depend on the whim of the law?

i know cops that drink now and thats ok but if they drank during prohibition they were criminals and sinners?

law is arbitrary and never can replace common sense. you wont see me in jail for hurting anyone or stealing - if they want to lock me up for something arbitrary like weed then let em.

if it were legalized tomorrow would that speak of its morality today? you better have a stronger moral compass than just the law.

if you risk breaking the law, then you risk going to jail period. every man has to know that risk and theres nothing a christian can offer you to keep you out of jail that common sense can't.

religion can however lead you into a life of fear of everything and fear of hell though so you weigh the options.

Offline hblair

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« Reply #113 on: January 19, 2002, 10:01:39 PM »
Lessee, I agree, illegal stuff puts you in jail sometimes. :confused:

Smoking dope is ok if you're a really good person, yea yeah, all that. Have fun smoking your dope, Hope you face responsibility someday. Oops, forgive me, I don't mean using illegal controlled substances as a full-grown adult with a family is irresponsible. It's really OK. Just don't let the law dawgs sniff you out, and get thrown in jail, because your wife and kids might get a lil embarrassed there. But hey, you're not trying to hurt people, cause you're only bad if you try to hurt people. Right?


Oh well, I'm done with this convo, unless some new material appears (other than comments from the O-club marijuana guild, which I'm sure are OTW now) Sorry I followed this so far off the subject.
:)

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #114 on: January 19, 2002, 10:14:16 PM »
I'm not making this up.  Being from a VERY religious background (which I long ago decided was for the birds) I have to say this.

I've had 3 very good freinds who where athiests.  I caught each one (because of my keen religious trainging no doubt lol) make the statement...."God never did anything for me".  

Kinda goes along with the old "There ain't no such thing as an athiest in a foxhole" thing.

Human nature makes sure we have something to turn to in time of need.  When there's howitzer rounds coming down....there's not much else to turn to.

:rolleyes:
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #115 on: January 20, 2002, 01:54:27 AM »
HBlair I guess your knowledge of history doesn't go beyond the last century if you claim what you did above..

I never claimed the church to be the sole reason for evil things, evil comes from within - not from the church.

But you have to realise that during the middle ages and beyond, the church was the ultimate instrument of politics and power. The priests had power over the king and the country. The church of the inquisition could well be directly compared to NSDAP or the communist party. Both of which are banned in most countries nowadays - and for a reason.

As I told you in my post the status of the church has changed nowadays and even the people following it have become less narrowminded and enlightened. Just as the people in Germany are nowadays just like the rest of us. Russia.. well.. the system is still reaping what it sow'd there. It will take decades for them to heal, if even then. We have to keep in mind that both Hitler and Stalin were very short periods in power compared to the whole dark ages of religious oppression.

The Taliban people are living the same kind of religious phase like christians did in the dark ages. They had very little knowledge - rules that based on belief not knowledge, rules that prohibited anyone from GETTING knowledge. That creates a deadly cycle where fundamentalism feeds itself by general stupidity of the population. The fact that all churches have leaders really only makes things worse.. If you haven't noticed the system of church is really a dictatorship.

The Pope doesn't hand out votes from his decisions. No, he's giving out the message of God directly through him. Right? He can't be wrong say the catholics. Same applies to the religious leaders of Taliban.. If they say go kill all Americans, that's exactly what the dumb diddlys will do because they know no other law except the one that they have been brainwashed to since being children. A lifetime of horror stories and promises of 7 virgins and a heaven on earth after death does wonders to a 19-year old boy with no education, work or hope for a future.

I have to rephrase: The church is not the cause for evil, but it's a powerful instrument to control people by their superstition for the people who really ARE evil and use their power wrong. Any religion that has a leader who has any kind of power over the other is really a political system. Unfortunately power corrupts, and who could be easyer to be corrupted than a guy who probably thinks himself too that he's on a mission of God and everyone think he's holy. That's the very base of corruption.

And Tumor: That howitzer example is directly comparable to a drowning person. He grabs the last straw even though he knows it won't save him. It's just the nature of a man to try to preserve his life by any means possible. So even an atheist may say a prayer when the howitzer hits, just in case. :)

I really don't know if God exists or not. The world just seems to be a place which does not support the existence of  an all-being controlling our lives. Things happen more or less randomly, most of them bad things. The fact that we live in priviledged societies may cloud our judgement. The sad truth is, though, that for each one of us there are 100 or more people in a state of agony and hunger. If there is a God, may God have mercy on them.

Somehow I just think that ain't gonna happen.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2002, 02:25:46 AM by mrsid2 »

Offline Kieran

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Mr. Sid
« Reply #116 on: January 20, 2002, 09:02:20 AM »
That explanation just might wash... IF  we were all Catholic or Muslim. In the case of Baptist, every person is considered equal and responsible to find information themselves. The minister is the center point of that learning, but is not in totalitarian control. In our church, we have elders that evaluate the minister regularly. If they feel he is moving away from the covenant of the church, then the minister is replaced.

You are correct in the respect religion doesn't kill, it's the men and women who manipulate the religion who do so. This is where I get the quote Exodus where God told the Israelites to "wipe out a country"- yes, He did. Point to a place in the Bible since the advent of Jesus where any country was instructed to do so again.

As to the reference to Hitler and Stalin? Completely accurate and valid. You are all aware that more people were alive in the 20th century than in all previous centuries combined? You are aware the combined death tolls of WWI and WWII exceeded by far the death tolls of all the wars before combined? Millions died in those wars- millions. Both of the world wars were sparked by political reasons, not to further a religious agenda.

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #117 on: January 20, 2002, 01:19:55 PM »
I think we should look at the length of timeperiods and percentage of the population of the time when we evaluate the severeness of something in the history.

Sure there are more people nowadays, but with your logic it's a lesser crime to kill all the children from a family who only has 2, opposed to killing 4 children from a family that has 10. I don't see it quite that way.. The effect, while being harsh on both, would be far bigger to the family with only 2 children, for they would be left barren.

I have to say I'm not familiar with the baptists church, and from what you said it seems a very democratic and in that sense a sane church. I'm happy to hear there are such institutions also.

You were quoting Bible in your post. So God told the Israelites to wipe out thier enemy? Are you sure that's not what the priests invented in order to run thier own political issues? I mean, how many times since the Bible was written (which was a considerably long time btw and many many persons) has anyone been able to get a direct message from God? Sure there are many who claim, as there are many who talk to martians. Yet any proven encounters are missing.

Has anyone thought about this? Why did God stop doing miracles and giving out thundering messages to people about 2000 years ago? Where did He go, what happened to Him?

Or is it just that people nowadays just don't buy all the stories the wandering preachers tell them.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #118 on: January 20, 2002, 02:09:14 PM »
WRT the numbers of people killed in the name of religion vs. those that were killed for blatant political causes, no contest- politics have killed more by far.

WRT to time, I would agree, more of human history has been wrapped up in religious wars of one kind or another. Still, the "causes" were in most cases justifications for furthering the desires of the leaders themselves.

As an example, people in America commonly believe Lincoln fought the Civil War to end slavery; this is not true. Lincoln fought the Civil War to preserve the Union, period. Only after the Emancipation Proclamation and Gettysburg did slavery become an integral part of Lincoln's plan. Still, it was something to rally the troops, even if it wasn't the real reason Lincoln had in mind.

People can be manipulated in many ways- it may be religion for some, but a quick look at your clothing will probably reveal Madison Ave. has you by the balls as well.

Why doesn't God speak to people in the form of prophets? I believe we've run the course on that in many ways. Man started in paradise and screwed it up (showing he was unfit for paradise). God gives people the law, by which they can live right, but they screw that up too (showing once again man is unfit for heaven, and cannot make himself fit). God sends Jesus to live among us and die for our sins as the ultimate sin offering (and, by having been pure His entire life, trading his blood for our sins).

The whole of the Bible shows that men fail, and that men cannot make themselves perfect. Prophets have come and gone in all that time, but with the first coming of Jesus the nature of religion changed. It was then left to all believers to be witnesses, not just a select few prophets. The Holy Spirit is to be with all believers, not just a few spokesmen.

In this, Mr. Fish is right- it is the duty of believers to speak of their faith and to share the good news. He is wrong where he assumes they are to force it upon anyone- that is impossible. If Moses couldn't break through the hard heart of Pharoah, how could I expect to be able to bull through anyone determined not to be swayed? Until your heart is ready for the message it will be nonsense to you.

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #119 on: January 20, 2002, 03:09:40 PM »
Well the Jehova's witnesses are trying to half-force the religion to people. I find going door to door sales very aggressive especially since religion is everyones private issue.

Another thing I fail to understand is the sacrifice issue..
Christians believe that they are dirty, no good and not worthy by any means - at least to paradise. They feel that they have to make good for the sins they committed.. Sins which are by modern standards no sins at all, if judged directly from the Bible.

Why did priests stop making blood offerings, sacrificing lambs etc.. Doesn't that please the God anymore?

Who and what for did Jesus sacrifice his life? If his father is the God, why should he die for human sins? So God in fact murdered his own son in anger of the sins of human.

Or was it more like that Jesus, knowing the political aspect of religion at that time, was raising opposition against the powers that be at that time. They saw it, understood what it means and eliminated him like they eliminated hundreds or thousands others before Jesus and after him. Only difference is that Jesus left a myth behind him, many contradicting stories.

Jesus could be seen as Yasser Arafat of the time, fighting the evil Israelis (of course it was quite the opposite back then, funny when you think of it)

God promised the Jews Israel, yet they are forced to commit murder and be murdered every day in order to keep the land. It looks like God certainly does nobody any favours.

I just feel that too many things contradict eachothers, no valid proof has been made of any supernatural intervention and nothing in this world really reflects any intervention of a pleasant higher spirit which God is supposed to be.. Any logical person will sum up the facts and see that either the God is the biggest sadist ever (un)seen or he doesn't exist.