E vs C

[Kieran]

Do we put you in the "world would be a better place without religion" camp? Can you really be that absolute? If I can, as a religious person, see the need to question what people tell me about religion, certainly you must be able to question the infallibility of science alone to bring about a better civilization. I would think a man of science would be wary of such sweeping generalizations.

If OTOH you acquiesce the possibility we need religion, then you must also consider the possibility the reason we need religion is because there is a God. If you follow that line of thought, not teaching religion would be foolish.

Your argument religion has held back the development of civilization is unproven at best, and unfounded at worst. Saying it doesn't make it so.

Take the Mayan society. It developed its science of astronomy as a direct result of its religious beliefs, yet the system that was developed is technically very sound.

The great pyramids of Cheops are architectual wonders- built as burial temples for god-kings.

Sure, we can point to wars and suffering that occurred due to religion, but we could just as easily look at the good that was done- unless of course you consider the likes of Mother Teresa a terrorist.

[Kieran]

Not all religions dispute evolution- this is where you show your ignorance of religion. Some religions accept it, except for the point of origin. Evolution could be construed as God's way of "creating". See how open-minded religion can be?

[Am0n]

If God were almighty could he create a rock that he could not lift?




always liked that one..

--
To anyone who claims that the christians have "calmed down", from all of the mind control,  and war paths the reason you feal like this is because you were brought up in there societity, under there terms. Had you been brought up a muslim in some 3rd world toejam hole you would be thinking that it was "ok".

Deny all you like but the US is a christian country, all hands down you cannot prove this wrong.

Ive read senseless post of "what about hitler" "stalin" "blah".. they were not on religous crusades, they had other motives.

What about the Roman empire?? Senselessly slaying clans of men women and children who would not conform. Thats just the tip of the ice-berge, we could probably go on all day about power hungry christian societys.

The salem which trails were not a small group of people, that was hundreds maybe thousands of people accused of whitchery because they didnt go to church on sunday to get guilt-ridden.


I have no doubt you "fealt" something Keiran, i dont want to break your heart but all religous freaks feal something, all of them. Its not the cult like chants your doing that are envoking the fealings, God is not reaching down and touching you.. YOU ARE envoking the fealings, nothing more. Unless your gods great enough to stop buy every other beliefs followers and touch them with his "grace"...  

[Am0n]

Kieran tell me somehting...

If "god" created all we see, in the sky and alike why doesnt he mention the life on other planets and what he has done for them, i mean you know hes god here so hes got to be god there to right? he created it and all..

Religion is how we are controlled, a person stripped of all of there animalistic traits is the easiest to control, because they are nearly helpless and the need direction.

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MrFish

just wanted to say great points in all of your post, i truely enjoyed reading them.

the thoeries on hell and how its used to scare people is RIGHT on the money.

Satanism, for example, is the prime "enemy" for christian faith. Simply because 1000 years "before christ", up till now it has promoted the exact opposite of christianity.. thus leading to mental gratification buy fullfilling your animal needs and desires.. This person is hard to control because he will think for him self becuase he is "almighty" and not inferior to any other man. We are all as (maybe less)signifigant as the dust on your desk when you look at the broad spectrum of space and life around us.

[midnight Target]

"Would the world be a better place without religion?"

"Would the world be a better place without science?"

Sounds like a really good thread topic to me.

"Your argument religion has held back the development of civilization is unproven at best, and unfounded at worst. Saying it doesn't make it so."

As long as religion is tied directly to the knowledge base available for study it will limit what can be studied to what is acceptable to the religion. That is what "Creation Science" attempts to do. This is simple logic. It is not the same as teaching "A study on Religion" or "The Religions of the World". On the one hand you have religious control of the curriculum, on the other is open minded study.

As to holding back the developement of mankind.

The Library of Alexandria - Why was it destroyed

"In 412 Theophilus' nephew Cyril succeeded him as Patriarch of Christianity. The Patriarch exercised control of Alexandria, and the conflict between secular and religious authority was decided in 415, when the Roman prefect Orestes, officially still in charge of the province, objected to Cyril's order that all Jews be expelled from the Alexandia. Cyril's army of monks murdered the prefect and were cannonized by him for this deed.

These same monks captured Hypatia, daughter of the Museum's last great mathematician Theon, who was the last keeper of the library. She was a Neoplatonist philosopher and astronomer whose teachings are partially recorded by one of her admirers and pupils, the Christian Synesius, and she was also supposedly an advisor to Orestes and one of the last members of the museum-library. Driving home from her own lectures without an attendant, this independent woman and scholar epitomized the suspect nature of Paganism and its heretical scientific teachings. She was dragged from her chariot by the mob, stripped, flayed, and finally burned alive in the library of the Caesareum as a witch. The Patriach Cyril was made a saint for this action. The library itself was ransanched of any gold or silver and then put to the torch.

Today, several diggings where the library stood, have revealed scientific and historical documents that would have resulted in the industrial revolution having occured 1500 years earlier. Among the lost documents included the methods used to build the pyramids and the parthenon, alchemy, natural plant medicine and utopian philosophy."

1500 may be an exageration - what if we say only 1/2 that long? What have we learned in the last 750 years?

[hblair]

Originally posted by Am0n
If God were almighty could he create a rock that he could not lift?




always liked that one..

--
To anyone who claims that the christians have "calmed down", from all of the mind control,  and war paths the reason you feal like this is because you were brought up in there societity, under there terms. Had you been brought up a muslim in some 3rd world toejam hole you would be thinking that it was "ok".

Deny all you like but the US is a christian country, all hands down you cannot prove this wrong.

Ive read senseless post of "what about hitler" "stalin" "blah".. they were not on religous crusades, they had other motives.

What about the Roman empire?? Senselessly slaying clans of men women and children who would not conform. Thats just the tip of the ice-berge, we could probably go on all day about power hungry christian societys.

The salem which trails were not a small group of people, that was hundreds maybe thousands of people accused of whitchery because they didnt go to church on sunday to get guilt-ridden.


I have no doubt you "fealt" something Keiran, i dont want to break your heart but all religous freaks feal something, all of them. Its not the cult like chants your doing that are envoking the fealings, God is not reaching down and touching you.. YOU ARE envoking the fealings, nothing more. Unless your gods great enough to stop buy every other beliefs followers and touch them with his "grace"...  

I don't know where to start. Kieren, let me reply to this one, give me a few minutes, bz at work.

[Kieran]

To anyone who claims that the christians have "calmed down", from all of the mind control, and war paths the reason you feal like this is because you were brought up in there societity, under there terms. Had you been brought up a muslim in some 3rd world toejam hole you would be thinking that it was "ok".

All religions are not the same, and treating them as such is not scientific. You seem to continually fail to recognize this point.

What about the Roman empire?? Senselessly slaying clans of men women and children who would not conform. Thats just the tip of the ice-berge, we could probably go on all day about power hungry christian societys.

This one is really funny- the Roman Empire killed Christians, they weren't Christian.

The salem which trails were not a small group of people, that was hundreds maybe thousands of people accused of whitchery because they didnt go to church on sunday to get guilt-ridden.

Nice. Sure, you can grab instances of zealots in all of history, and religion is not alone. Politics have their zealots too- or have we so quickly forgotten Clinton?

[Kieran]

Today, several diggings where the library stood, have revealed scientific and historical documents that would have resulted in the industrial revolution having occured 1500 years earlier. Among the lost documents included the methods used to build the pyramids and the parthenon, alchemy, natural plant medicine and utopian philosophy.

And once again, you quote opinion as fact. Prove this. You would probably argue that virtuous man would no doubt have utilized to the full all the knowledge contained in that library, and would have shared it with all if it hadn't been for that nasty, repressive religious leader. I could counter just as easily a secular leader may have come along and done the same thing- and it would be just as provable.

[Toad]

Target,

The equating of past religious atrocities with teaching creationism in US schools is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Arguing against teaching a "Creation Myth" in schools and arguing against religion are not exactly the same.

Anyway, that's not germane to what I'm saying.

I'm saying that all those "giants" you so revere (and want US youth to emulate) were probably, almost certainly. exposed to some religion's Creation Myth in their youth.

Nonetheless, and for better or for worse, that did not stop them from "thinking the deep thoughts" and "making the world/society a better place".

Some will argue that their early exposure to a "Creation Myth" may have driven their wonder and thus their desire for research.

Others will argue that their early exposure to a "Creation Myth" may have hindered their wonder and thus their desire for research.

Maybe, maybe not. Probably some truth in each camp.

As I said, though... it just doesn't matter.

The world progresses as the world progresses.

It might be possible to show where teaching a "Creation Myth" hindered man's progress. I'd also wager there's examples where such a belief may have driven and advanced man's progress.

Perhaps the world isn't meeting YOUR personal need to see progress but once again, I personally feel that there is "no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should".... despite your feelings or my feelings about teaching a Creation Myth in US schools.

As I said... I don't really care. I don't think it is/was/could be much of an obstacle to the progress of mankind. Teach it or don't... I just don't care. Because it really won't make any difference in the "big picture".

[hblair]

Originally posted by Am0n
If God were almighty could he create a rock that he could not lift?




always liked that one..

  ?

Originally posted by Am0n

Ive read senseless post of "what about hitler" "stalin" "blah".. they were not on religous crusades, they had other motives.

Yeah, those "other" moticves were exterminating the entire Jewish population. Men, Women, children by the millions. Are you saying that is a good thing?

Originally posted by Am0n

What about the Roman empire?? Senselessly slaying clans of men women and children who would not conform. Thats just the tip of the ice-berge, we could probably go on all day about power hungry christian societys.

Thanks for making a point. The Romans were a pagan people and many of those tortured were *Christians*. Reminds me of the guy who runs the ball in the opposite end zone to give the other team a score.

Originally posted by Am0n

The salem which trails were not a small group of people, that was hundreds maybe thousands of people accused of whitchery because they didnt go to church on sunday to get guilt-ridden.

hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions! tens of millions! (we're up there with hitler now, if it were only true huh?) Some people who were not Christians, just superstitious with a Bible.

Originally posted by Am0n

From single-celled amoeba's at the pools that bleed from the core of the earth, advanced to a multi-celled bacteria that eats away at it we have developed, as all creatures on earth.

They did tell you that this is a theory no? Or do you have faith that it is fact?

Originally posted by Am0n
Ive seen a study done buy a professor of astronamy/mathmatics that wrote up a eqasion(SP) according to earths evolution that claimed in our galaxy there should be 50,000+ planets with life form, such as ours. I think "god" had his work cut out for him..
 

rofl. This is all fact huh?

[mrfish]

"This one is really funny- the Roman Empire killed Christians, they weren't Christian."

lol- actually kieren emporer constantine converted to christianity and later it was mandatory in the roman empire.

how it is relevant to me is still a mystery. all it is is a branch of judaism. i mean if you are a jew you believe a messiah is coming according to prophecy - being a christian just mean you are a jew that thinks jesus was that messiah.

you act as if jesus was some blond hippy created by uncle sam just for you like the pictures of him suggest.

jesus is nothing more than the alleged fullfillment of a prophecy of some leper ridden trifling desert people of 2000 years ago.

my father wasn't from israel and neither was his father or his father. was yours?

if i was going to believe in any religion i would probably believe in the religions of the forests and fjords where my ancestors roamed before christianty was shoved down their throats, although their religions are patently ridiculous too.

just because some emporer grabbed up the trendy religion of the day and later passes it on to the powerbrokers of medieval europe who enjoyed its ability to mesmerize and subjugate the masses doesnt mean it says anything to me about my life.

your wacko god creates evil and then tells us to stay away while he invisibly watches and judges he dangles it in front of us for a few decades and then consigns us to hell for eternity if we bite all from his invisible hiding place???.....and where's jesus?  i mean what is he waiting for? is he watching from his invisible tower too?

hilarious..... and if i do say so myself it sounds a bit naughty if ya know what i mean.

[Kieran]

Yes, yes, yes, fully aware of the incorporation of Christianity into Roman society. After all, "Roman Catholics" originated somewhere. This was all later, of course.

I don't act as if Jesus was a blonde hippy, don't know where that line even came from. Sounds like rhetoric to me.

I do believe God/Jesus watches over us, I just don't think it is a situation where I can expect to be saved from all the mistakes I make while I live on this planet. I think Jesus is more concerned for my immortal soul than whether or not I get that new SUV or move in the right circles.

[Am0n]

Ok Hblair, now although i respect your opionon i never once said the theroy of populated planets in our galaxy was fact, if i did i appoligize. BUT i'll take the advice of a professor over a hick about astronimical therioes any day. No offense. I mean i wouldnt go to my doctor to have my cars engines over-hauled..

If you want to tell me how to catch "the big one down at the lake", i'll listen contently.. but dont shoot down a very, extremely intelligent persons therories when you cant even attempt to argue them.

did hitler slaughter jews for his religous reasons? of course not, he was atheist as pointed out, he thought they were discusting people. The discussion wasnt if it was a good thing, it was if it was religiously motivated.


"Some people who were not Christians, just superstitious with a Bible."
Cmon LOL... Thats a oxi-moron if i ever read one LOL.  (thats whats christians are)


About the single celled organism theroy, it holds water quiet well. The spring with extremly hot water erupting from it, the steam alone can mortaly wound you. Scientist have found the most primitive, oldest organisms there. The next clostest organism is a bychondrate, 2 celled organism and they mutate the farther they get away. There is much more to this but it has been some time since i seen these therioes.


--

And im glad you figured out that the romans were christians Kieran. Christiananity, Chatholism.. same toejam, different pile.


At one time yes they were a pegan society, very sucessful one at that.. But then again at one time the Apache indians that populated north america were pegan, but are now christians.. so whats your point? The tortured christians relentlessly.. but now are the same. Sorry i dont know where you were going with that statement.

[Am0n]

BTW

Sorry for hi-jacking your thread with a religous debate on how christ is blind TahGut, i couldnt hold my self back


just for the record, i think that they should teach sceince in school, not religous mumbo-jumbo. Do you know if it deliberately mentioned "god" or "jesus" in those teachings? if so that is rediculous.


As a future parent, the more i here, the more home schooling apeals to me


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1000 years ago .. "We created the earth, it is flat you will fall off the earth and die if you go out to sea"

today.. "ohh wait, its round and theres "space and time" umm.. we created the big bang that made this galaxy."

OK.. where was the thing that blew up creating the bang?? "space" as we know it was created buy this catashophy. someone ask god for me tonight while your de-grading your self before your sleep.

[Kieran]

If you want to tell me how to catch "the big one down at the lake", i'll listen contently.. but dont shoot down a very, extremely intelligent persons therories when you cant even attempt to argue them.

Who are you talking about here? Certainly not the arguments you've put forth...

"Theory holds water quite well" still means "I think he's right". Proving it beyond doubt is not possible.

Hitler and Stalin are excellent points, because the argument at that time was how non-religious causes have killed more people in our world's history than have religious causes- and between Hitler and Stalin alone this is almost certainly true. The point for you, spelled out simply, is politics kills more people than religion, so blaming religion for all the evil in the world is misguided.

"Dont shoot down an extremely intelligent person's theories when you can't even attempt to argue them intelligently."

Sorry to edit your words into legible form.