Kill stealing

[J_A_B]

"The obvious retort is, "If a plane's still flying, it's not been killed."

That's true in certain circumstances.  A smoking B-17 with damaged flaps and on 3 engines is still a fair target, IMO. However, a piece of falling burning junk with its tail or wing missing IS a dead plane.

I agree with the idea posted earlier in this thread--once a plane is damaged to the point of becomming unflyable, a kill should be awarded and that plane's ICON should disappear so people don't mistakenly chase it.

J_A_B

[Bullethead]

I like things fine the way they are.  Don't count the kill until the pilot dies or bails.  Let kills stay up for grabs until then.

Why?  Simple.  This is a 2-way street.  And I can assure you, I get more kills than I lose because of the current system.  I bet you all do, too, but just don't realize it because you're so torqued by the few you lose.  I mean, I hardly ever lose a kill to kill-stealers because I fly planes with big guns.  The target usually blows or is so full of my bullets that it can't be stolen.  But I do get a lot of kills in other situations.

How do you get kills with this system?  Simple--you just stay alive as long as possible.  As long as you're alive, you can score, even if you're just falling wreckage.  Here are some rather common examples:

1.  Exploiting Kill-Shooter
Kill-stealers, being concerned only for themselves, have no compunction keeping them from cutting in front of each other in their rush to put bullets into your dying ass.  As a result, those by-passed frequently kill themselves with the kill-shooter, giving you the kill.

2.  Exploiting the Ground
As you slowly flutter to earth minus empennage or your rear fuselage, would-be kill-stealers will swoop down on you.  Being so fixated on perforating your remains, or not realizing your true condition until too late, they quite often scream right by you and into the ground below.  This happens a lot, probably because when you're in this condition, you're not smoking and are thus attract "normal" pilots who mistake you for a legitimate target.

3.  Exploiting Trajectories
How many times have you pulled up to meet a diving HOdweeb and gotten mutual destruction at the merge?  But guess what?  He's heading down at high speed while you're heading up.  So he hits the ground first, so you get the kill.

4.  Exploiting Turn-Around Times
You and a buff simultaneously cripple each other.  Or maybe you got the worst of it and are going down, but the buff is in no shape to continue the mission.  This is usually at fairly high alt so you've got lots of time before you crash.  But if the buffer is in a hurry, as many are, they don't want to waste time trying to fly home.  Instead, they want to start the time-consuming alt grab of their next hop as soon as possible.  So quite often they bail very quickly, again giving you the kill.

The morale to all this, of course, is NEVER bail.  You are giving up all kinds of kills if you do.  Call it vengeance from beyond the grave

[Tjay]

Originally posted by Bullethead
The morale to all this, of course, is NEVER bail.  You are giving up all kinds of kills if you do.  Call it vengeance from beyond the grave

Hmm. I thought not bailing, which results in a 'You have been killed' message would have a more adverse effect on your K/D ratio than bailing, which - assuming you remember to open your chute and some dweeb doesn't kill you - results in a 'You have bailed successfully' message.

I guess that in the case of mutual destruction, if you don't bail and that results in a kill simply because the other guy hits the ground before you do, it WOULD work in your favour. But don't you get the kill even if you bail and pull and the other guy hits the ground while you are serenely floating to earth? Or can't you be awarded a kill once you have bailed?

[Bullethead]

Tjay said:

Hmm. I thought not bailing, which results in a 'You have been killed' message would have a more adverse effect on your K/D ratio than bailing, which - assuming you remember to open your chute and some dweeb doesn't kill you - results in a 'You have bailed successfully' message.

Depends on how you figure your k/d I guess.  I figure you lost whether you go down with the ship or bail, so to me it counts as a death either way.  

Besides, bailing has real negative connotations to me.  There are 2 types of bailers that annoy me:  score potatos and wusses.  The former are more concerned with salvaging points out of a losing situation than the fact that they lost in the first place.  They should take their lumps as incentive not to lose next time.  The other type leads you on a long chase and then bails just before you catch them rather than die like men, or even maybe win.  

Certainly, many people bail for legit reasons, such as just trying to be realistic.  That's cool with me.  However, there are enough of both of the annoying types around, and I find them so offensive, that I never bail just to ensure that nobody ever mistakes me for that type of pilot.  And because I never bail, I reap the benefits I described by prolonging my agony .

I guess that in the case of mutual destruction, if you don't bail and that results in a kill simply because the other guy hits the ground before you do, it WOULD work in your favour. But don't you get the kill even if you bail and pull and the other guy hits the ground while you are serenely floating to earth? Or can't you be awarded a kill once you have bailed?

I know WB was that way.  You'd still get kills from the prior hop after you died and re-upped.  But as far as I can tell, that's not the case in AH.  Once you die or bail, that's it for your killing that hop.  I've never seen a kill message, or even an assist message, come up after I've died in situations where I would have in WB.

[Yeoman]

I just now realized that there were points in this game  That does suck though, I thought I left kill stealing behind in Everquest/dark age of lagalot.

[Dead Man Flying]

Geneva Convention be damned... all chutes must die!

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Hamish]

Never Bail. Don't give an FDB the satisfaction of shootin' yer Chute.

[Tjay]

Originally posted by Bullethead
Tjay said:

Bullethead,
Thanks for your input.
I appreciate your feeling about those who bail after a long pursuit without any attempt to engage. But I do know one pilot who reckons that players (P51 drivers in particular) who pursue a retreating nme across four sectors while closing at 1 yard per minute, when they should have reversed and gone back to the job in hand, deserve it. I only bail when staying with the plane would result in certain death.

Now I had assumed that bailing out to live and fight another day had some sort of positive effect on your K/D ratio. Anyone know for sure if a bail = a death, or not?

[Fatty]

A bail doesn't equal a death, it only counts as half a death, if you make it to the ground okay.  So everyone should bail out more.

[Hangtime]

If anyone would like to finish off any flaming wreckages I leave plummeting to the ground, you're welcome to them. Hell, they deserve it for getting killed by a dweeb like me anyhow. I may give you toejam just for the sake of giving you toejam, but I promise not to pee my pants and get all emotional on ya. On the other hand, if they happen to bail before you get to the wreckage . . . STAY THE HELL AWAY FROM MY CHUTE!

^^^^^^^

Yep; thats pretty much my sentiment.

A bail doesn't equal a death, it only counts as half a death, if you make it to the ground okay. So everyone should bail out more.

Yah. Thats the smart thing to do. (licks chops) Bail. Save yer score. And if somebody shoots yer chute, be sure and announce on chan 1 how yah feel about it. Name names. Lets arrest this mindless chute shooting before it becomes tasty... err rampant.

[JoeCrip]

Yea, there have been situations where i have made a cigar outta a plane, then some niki dives on the falling cigar, explodeds the plane i shot up, and gets the kill. And the sad part about it is, the people who kill steal are ususally in the Top 500, so they know kill stealing is worng, but they do it anyway.

[Otto]

I never shoot over your sholder. I wouldn't fire at a flaming wreck.
     But, whenever I try and save your bellybutton you always give me 'Heck'

    Or something like that.......

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Geneva Convention be damned... all chutes must die!

-- Todd/Leviathn

As a newcomer to AH, I can't tell you how pleased I am to hear this.  I had begun to think that there was no Pointmongering Resistance Movement in this game.

- oldman

[Modas]

Originally posted by J_A_B
"The obvious retort is, "If a plane's still flying, it's not been killed."

That's true in certain circumstances.  A smoking B-17 with damaged flaps and on 3 engines is still a fair target, IMO. However, a piece of falling burning junk with its tail or wing missing IS a dead plane.

I agree with the idea posted earlier in this thread--once a plane is damaged to the point of becomming unflyable, a kill should be awarded and that plane's ICON should disappear so people don't mistakenly chase it.

J_A_B

I LIKE that idea!!!

Modas
8=X Cutthroats