Author Topic: The P-38...a Mustang Pilot's Observations (Read 950 times)

Tac · « **Reply #45 on:** January 22, 2002, 08:43:16 AM »

we like hot air nimitz.

It makes the FDB's touchy-feely

Toad · « **Reply #46 on:** January 22, 2002, 09:13:33 AM »

Sorry, Midnight, that simply isn't the way it happened.

You guys were above us to the South and coming North. We were lower headed East, flight of four, two elements. Sax and I were the lower Southern element I think and Rude and Milo were the Northern higher element.

Sax and I saw you first and advised the other element. Milo and Rude went level for speed and Milo simply did a slow climbing turn to the N onto the AFK -51's six. I remember watching him slowly climb and close to firing position.

That's the way it happened.

ALL of us were below you guys.

The only time we got higher than you was when you dove on me and followed me down as I drug you under my squaddies. You did ping the oil on the right engine and I landed at 4. You were too busy extending away from the other 38's to finish me.

BTW, I _think_ that was the FIRST night we flew -38's. We all had about 20 minutes of "stick time" in them. I believe we're all a little better in the -38 now.

Midnight · « **Reply #47 on:** January 22, 2002, 09:45:38 AM »

Nope, sorry

The P-38L doesn't have enough climb advantage and not near enough speed to catch a P-51B (What Fatz was in) at full power above 15K. Just won't happen.

Therefore, the conclusion is that the P-38s had an altitude advantage on the P-51s at the start of the engagement. Yes, it did appear to be greater an advantage to me, because I was in a P-51D and Fatz was pulling away and was higher than me at the time.

If I had the advantage, there is no way I would have left Milo to hang off of Fatz's six and get a free kill as you are describing.

Anyway, that whole point is not why I responded to this thread in the first place. I said I could kill the P-38L in my P-51D.

Toad · « **Reply #48 on:** January 22, 2002, 09:57:14 AM »

LOL.

Yeah, right.

Milo doesn't know what he did, the rest of us didn't watch him do it and see it happen just as he described it.

Let's see now.. presumably heavy P-51B (since you guys probably always take enough fuel to get to the stratosphere) and a KNOWN light P-38 because we were heading to 4 to refuel.... P-51B climbing w/o WEPS since he was reportedly AFK and P-38 using a lead turn climb in WEP to close to guns.

...and you're going to say it's impossible? Good, keep thinking like that please.

Rude · « **Reply #49 on:** January 22, 2002, 10:04:22 AM »

Cmon Midnight!

Quit tellin stories...you know we own you guys!

Midnight · « **Reply #50 on:** January 22, 2002, 10:35:05 AM »

Toad, did you look at that data or just post it?

I told you Fatz was 75% fuel load at takeoff. At 17K, that is at least 5 minutes into the flight (it was more, but it takes about 5 minutes to get to 17K from 0K) which means his AUX tank was empty and his wing tanks were about 87%.

At 17K, which we were, the P-38L holds about a 100'/min climb advantage (WEP On) on the P-51B (WEP Off). This is no where near the advantage needed to climb up to the six of a P-51B, if you were starting out lower, as you claim. Even if you guys had only 25% fuel left, your climb advantage would be maybe 500'/min.

And once again, you seem to neglect that I was right there. If I was above you, you would never have made it to Fatz in the first place. I would have used my E advantage to dive in on Milo's six as he

Quote

Originally posted by Toad
I remember watching him slowly climb and close to firing position.

That's the way it happened.

ALL of us were below you guys.

Sorry, but you don't slowly climb up to firing position on any of my wingman if I have an altitude advantage on you.

Own what, Rude? maybe some lead I threw your way from my 6 .50s. Other than that, you own nothing of the 412th's

Hangtime · « **Reply #51 on:** January 22, 2002, 10:49:36 AM »

oh, fer crissakes, lets stop waving the rubber dorks around, chose up sides, and rumble.

Midnight · « **Reply #52 on:** January 22, 2002, 11:20:00 AM »

Already working on it Hangtime.

Rude already agreed to it.

412th and 13th deathmatch 8 -vs- 8.

We just need to set the time, date and ROE.

Toad · « **Reply #53 on:** January 22, 2002, 11:25:20 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Midnight
Toad, did you look at that data or just post it?

Yeah, I read it. Did you?

What I'm seeing is a no-WEP -51B climbing at 2700-2800 fpm @ 17k and a -38 climbing at 3300-3400 fpm at the same altitude.

I also sorta doubt Milo's kill was that high. As I recall, it was maybe 15k which would give Milo another couple of hundred fpm advantage.

Also, there's that dang geometry thingie. Non-evasive target climbing steadily North, Eastbound interceptor well aware of his path before the dot is even in view turns NNE to intercept, climbing all the time. Intercept occurs at a point in space well ahead of N bound target when target is first sighted. Interceptor has much shorter distance to travel/climb.

Also, as I recall it, you were lagging the lead target quite a bit... and lower than him as well but still above us. Basically, there was NOTHING you could do to save him.

But surely, all four of us can't remember it correctly... even the guy that did the shooting.. but you have it exact to the foot.

Post the film of that, will ya?

Midnight · « **Reply #54 on:** January 22, 2002, 12:26:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Toad

What I'm seeing is a no-WEP -51B climbing at 2700-2800 fpm @ 17k and a -38 climbing at 3300-3400 fpm at the same altitude.

Look again, Toad. P-51B at 17k no wep is at it's peak climb rate of about 3200 fpm. P-38L is dropping off to 3300-3400 as you say.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad

Also, as I recall it, you were lagging the lead target quite a bit... and lower than him as well but still above us. Basically, there was NOTHING you could do to save him.

Ok, let me see. I was below and behind Fatz (about 3k or so less altitude and about 2.5k yards back. You guys were even further away, and claim to have been lower than me, (say 1000 feet for your benefit) meaning you were at least 4K below Fatz.

Climbing (giving you advantage again) 500 fpm more than Fatz, it would take two minutes to catch up to him at his current altitude. If we started as low as you say (15K) and Fatz was climbing at 2800 fpm, that would mean that in the two minutes Milo was "slowly climbing to firing position" Fatz would have climbed an additional 5000 feet (about), making his altitude 20K by the time Milo would be there to fire.

Now during this 2 minute period, if I was above you, what do you suggest I was doing if ALL of you were lower than me?

Now, if we use the numbers I come up with (which are the numbers on the chart) the P-51B would have been climbing closer to 3200 fpm giving Milo only 200 fpm better climb than Fatz, meaning his time to match is closer to 5 minutes, meaning he wouldn't have been in firing position until they were closer to 24K, which we all know, they never got that high.

Quote

Originally posted by Toad

Also, there's that dang geometry thingie. Non-evasive target climbing steadily North, Eastbound interceptor well aware of his path before the dot is even in view turns NNE to intercept, climbing all the time. Intercept occurs at a point in space well ahead of N bound target when target is first sighted. Interceptor has much shorter distance to travel/climb.

Oh yeah, geometry. If Milo had to turn NNE to make the interception, that means he had to travel the longer distance, not shorter to close the gap (that's the way a right triangle works)

Your explaination of the events do not work mathmatically Toad. Therefore, it is not possible to have happened the way you describe.

ygsmilo · « **Reply #55 on:** January 22, 2002, 12:55:36 PM »

Well I had better solve this discussion.

I take back my kill,,,

The Fatz is still climbing out AFK, I am no longer climbing to kill him waiting for his wingman to come kill me because he has seen me and broken down and to the right and it is taking forever to get in guns range at this slow rate of closure. The other Pony will have to get in position before I can get a shot off.

Problem solved.

Moving on-----

lazs2 · « **Reply #56 on:** January 22, 2002, 01:10:35 PM »

Well you guys all seem to know youir stuff so maybe one of ya all could explain to me which nikie was called "the twin engined devil" ? None of my books show it.
lazs

DoctorYO · « **Reply #57 on:** January 22, 2002, 02:03:27 PM »

even though i havn't been in th MA for a while Personally i think the p51 will totally destroy a p38 in 1 v 1 engagement below 25k

reasons are simple, energy retention and high speed climb ability.

High speen climb

275 ias or more at 2k/min mustang... (my 4 mg model is even better)

250 ias or more at 2k/min p38

note these are approx figures but fairly close .....

this advantage is huge..

Luftwaffle pilots use the g-10's power in a similiar manner but the mustang is not far off in the high speed climb department.

g-10 used to do 300mph or more at 3k / min for 10 mins wep which is silly.

Using energy tactics you can bleed the p38 (be patient its not like your going to run out of fuel)

you will finally get the head to head attack or headon and my personal favorite was the double immelamn either hard or soft**
**(hard if the enemy goes soft and vice versa; if im speaking in tougues do some more air to air reading.)

note good p38's pilots wont bite at first but just keep the pressure on stay fast and try to gain any angles you can to get a gun solution. They will crack or run out of fuel or get low. Either of those and the 38 is toast.

beware the 38's low speed stall if you decide to rope and play the air violin.

Visibility is superior in the p51 for the intangables

add ++ for fuel...

If you have flown the mustang in this manner youll see how effective it really is, near untouchable in a 1 vs 1...

Im shure hangtime will vouge for this hes a long time p51 vet...

by no means is this a 38 bash but IMO the p51 just gives you more options in a duel. (g10 even more tricks up its sleeve but thats another story.

IMO the 38 is a killing machine but with equal pilots the p51 is superior energy fighter. And im biased to good energy fighting.

my 2 cents

DoctorYo

Am0n · « **Reply #58 on:** January 22, 2002, 02:06:29 PM »

in a co-e p51 vrs p38 encounter, i'll go with the p47..

Rude's sucha HO dweeb.. who cares what hes flying

**cough**

Tac · « **Reply #59 on:** January 22, 2002, 03:21:22 PM »

Know thine enemy lazs. Dont tell me you're whining because one of the strat-minded pilots you cry so much about suddenly takes a furballing plane and has some fun with it. Did he shoot you down? You get a booboo from him? Awwww.