Author Topic: organization ruining the MA. (Read 2375 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:03:59 PM »

loser... no I don't think moving the fields slightly closer together and toughening the CV's will result in more gangbanging. I believe what I stated, that, closer fields will make it feasable for the slower midwar planes to feel that they have a chance to leave the ack and intercept a force somewhere in the "neutral zone"... and still make it back when bingo. fields can still be overwhelmed but it will be a little harder to find people willing to leave the fun of the fight for the dubious pleasure of "formation flying and killing Ai". They do it now because the fear that they have no chance for any other kind of fight. If they venture out on their own they learn quickly that they have no chance. Soon they will tire of the whole mess. I also believe that a fur with roughly equal numbers in a "neutral zone" (or nearly so) will teach newbies infinitly faster than any amount of formation flying. Most are decent sticks now. I know, I fight em. And yeah.... I been around a long time. Me and my squaddies can fly around and pick our fights and get a lot of risk free kills if we really want to I guess. We don't do it much tho cause it is boring. we are constantly looking for a fight that isn't toooooo lopsided. A bit of irony here.... lateley we have been avoiding any field where a whole flock of green dots are going..... There will be no fight there! The enemy knows you are coming and still they won't up. you will find a perfectly intact field with no cons except maybe GV's... at the same time, they will be hitting another field in the same manner that you are hitting theirs. And to what purpose? Capture the flag? is it air combat or capture the flag? I want air combat.

eddiek.. I have seen no worthwhile opposition to what I have said. Your posts are as silly as desillys and the other anti lazs posts are simple kneejerk simpleton posts from a predictable cast..... no real substance there I'm sure you will agree.
lazs

Ripsnort · « **Reply #31 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:04:12 PM »

Well, APache, you should have been on Friday night when the rooks got the reset, you'd have had your choice of 38 fields and many furballs.

Bottom line, the MA ebb and flows like the tide. If you don't like what ya see when you log in, log off, come back in an hour, its bound to change!

ghostdancer · « **Reply #32 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:05:31 PM »

Got to say I sort of read this thread with a bit of amusement. On the one hand there is another thread by Hangtime in regards to nobody working together and now here is one about too much organization.

--

First I don't think organization or lack of organization is the problem that is causing a few guys to get slammed by a large group of enemy. Simply put, during peak hours there is close to 400 people in the MA. This means that almost no matter where you go its going to be a furball with lots of planes in the air. There are exceptions to his of course but usually 2 out of the 3 country fronts are simply mobbed with planes as two stronger countries try to beat each other too killing the third.

On Friday night (1/18) it was first the Bishops and Knights racing to reset the Rooks (Knights got reset) and then later it was the Rooks and Bishops racing to reset the Knights (Rooks got reset).

So whether its an organized mob or an organized mob 2 fronts are going to see heavy fighting with the leading country and the second leading country trying to finish off the weaker third. Sometimes when there is some oranization you will see fighting erupt on the third front between the two leaders as they try to stop each other from getting a reset. If no organization basically everyone just goes to the hot spots and ignores that front.

--

Now as for organizing itself basically in the case of the Rooks its a simple reaction to the situation we percieved ourselves to be in before November 2001. Simply put many of the Rook squads started getting sick of being ripped to shreds by the other countries because the other countries planned organized raids through the mission planner, because we were unorganized and nobody outside of your squad would help you no matter what. That people were not even doing check six calls, and there were several times when the Rooks instead of fighting the leading country in the MA (at a specific time) kept attacking the under dog country to such an extent that we caused the reset to happen when another country was ahead in bases. I am sure that the Knights and Bishops feel the same type of things apply to them and have similiar stories.

So 5 Rook squads (non-rotating squads) got together and said guys lets try to start working together, cover each others sixes, and plan missions. It has grown from these 5 squads to many more. We don't run "Officially" planned Joint Ops every week (too much strain to do so) but it happens every couple weeks or so. However, the culture in Rookland is changing to the point that when we don't have Joint Ops alot of squads still are work with each other on the fly and wing and cover other rooks tails and not just their squadies. Basically they don't go back to "I only cover my squadies" mentality or mindless furballing mentality.

Basically the organiztion, in the Rook case, was a reaction to the percieved organization of the other countries (especially the Bishops at the time .. about 4 months ago). We plan objectives on the fly tasking squads or elements of squads to go after them in the manner their C.O. seems fit and fight it out. Most of the time I end up flying goons but basically you have fighter sweeps and screen defenses set up, bomber assaults on supporting bases and strat going on with high alt escort, jabo attacks, special ops, squads tasked to be a flying brigade to switch from one area to another rapidly as the situation develops, ground assaults (when the map permits .. mass GV attacks can be a blast), etc., etc.

More importantly is that nobody armed is twisted to do this. Nobody is berated for being apart of not being apart of it and the squads do it volunteerily.

With this many people in the MA basically many members of the RJO belives that either its just a mindless furball mentality (which we don't like all that much) or we can run things on a "country ops mentality" since many squads are small to medium and don't have the numbers to make any impact by themselves. However with allying with other squads then they feel like a team, feel like they make a difference, and get really proud when they are tasked to do something (like the RRR was in stalling the Bishops in the North) really important but not very glorious. On the country ops mentality basically things being fought out like two or three countries trying to win the war (reset) with all sorts of action going on for that goal.

Point in case many people have said that bomber ops are not much fun or the damage can be easily repaired so it takes the fun out of bomber ops. When bombers are used to support concrete goals its is quite fun .. we have two full squads (40+) that love running bombers ops just because of this type of flavor and action.

--

Now basically the MA is going through a cultural shift. The days of small packs of pilots or fighting each other in small engagements or even strictly one on one fights are few and far between because AH is start to consistently have 300 - 380 in MA at peak and around 180 - 280 during non-peak.

Organized actions when facing unorganized resistance tend to shred it. Which in turn can cause other people to organize which changes the culture of the game. Nothing can be done about that since you can really expect HiTech to say .. sorry but you 120 people can't play right now or you guys can't organize on anything higher than a squad level.

So its a cultural shift .. and I am sure there will be others .. especially when they implement the new bomber features they have talked about.

--

Lastly I will agree with some people's points that a larger map might help more since with bases spread out more that organized forces have to spread their forces out more to support more operations and cover more fronts from counter attacks.

Smaller distance between bases I personally believe would just tend to even more emphasize concentrating forces in certain areas.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #33 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:08:05 PM »

Quote

Laz:"I also believe
that a fur with roughly equal numbers in a "neutral zone" (or nearly so) will teach newbies
infinitly faster than any amount of formation flying. Most are decent sticks now. I know, I
fight em. And yeah.... I been around a long time. Me and my squaddies can fly around and
pick our fights and get a lot of risk free kills if we really want to I guess. "

Then promote the DA, they put the DA up when you squeaked about not enough furballing back over a year ago! Then you had the balls to thumb your nose at it!

For the record, the only 3 that agree, or semi-agree with Laz so far in this thread are all his squaddies.

I'm outta this thread, too much Laz "Me Me Me".

ghostdancer · « **Reply #34 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:11:19 PM »

Oh, and as for air combat .. yes it still does happen .. but then again it depends on what you call it.

The bomber escorts have had a hell of a time defending the bombers from attacks. Those guys told to screen for attacks to the W or E or N or S of a field while a Jabo force hits the field usually have a good time trying to hold the line and stop enemy fighters from breaking through and hitting slow and heavy jabos and goons coming in.

--

Now as for your point about smaller fields helping earlier war planes .. you are probably right. Right now I usually see Spit Vs, Sea Fires, and Zekes just come up to do field defense when a base it under assault or almost under assault since there low speed is not a disadvantage then and their greater maneuverabilit is an advantage.

MA, for whatever reason, mainly sees the late war planes. Not sure what really can be done to encourage more people to fly earlier models. I fly several planes for the share challend of them. P47 models and Hellcat for example.

Apache · « **Reply #35 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:11:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Well, APache, you should have been on Friday night when the rooks got the reset, you'd have had your choice of 38 fields and many furballs.

Bottom line, the MA ebb and flows like the tide. If you don't like what ya see when you log in, log off, come back in an hour, its bound to change!

I was. The knights got the reset I believe, yes?

Midnight · « **Reply #36 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:16:26 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I'm just the canary in the coalmine.

Wouldn't that be nice. Then we would only have to listen to your broken-record chirping until the CO level got to the point where you just keeled over.

Do us a favor lazs.

FIELD A>>> MIDDLE <<
Tell us, oh learned one, what altitude should fields A, B and middle ground be at, and what distance should be between them?

What resources should these fields have, and how much should be there of each type? How should these resources be depleated, or should they be infinite?

Should those resources be damageable by the enemy? If so, how would the enemy do the damage?

Should the fields have defensive armament? If so, should it be destroyable? What range should the guns have? Should they be automatic?

If an enemy plane shoots you down, should you be able to get in a new plane and instantly shoot him down, or be able to get to his field within a couple minutes and kill him as he is landing?

Please, enlighten us with your view of the perfect combat game. Through all your endless complaining and whining and name calling, you never seem to actually spell out what it is you want.

If you can't take the time to answer the above questions, then all you are is another burden on society, endlessly blaming the rest of us for your problems.

Or would you prefer to toss a few more insults around and put a broad classification on a very different group of people?

lazs2 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:17:34 PM »

it boils down to.... do you like 30 v 30 fights or 30 vs 1. desillys, sunchaser and eddiek can't disguise that. Very close fields would be a disaster but slightly closer fields really work. They work now. The closer fields (and CV's) are the areas that are popular till they get (all too easily) shut down.

you can tell ht he's full of toejam all yu want but he knows what happens when the "realism fanatics" run the show just as when you go too far towards a furball arena. He isn't blind and sees the numbers in the CT and special events. They can't maintain any energy for a 24/7 arena. Still I'm surprised he commented at all knowing as he does how touchy you guys are. I'm sure there will be some tear stained pillows tonite from the "realism fanatics" who no doubt feel betrayed at this point.

and rip.... you go on and on about some "DA". Who cares about your DA? I have allways said that seperate arenas don't work. No contradiction involved here.
lazs

Ripsnort · « **Reply #38 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:20:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Apache

I was. The knights got the reset I believe, yes?

No, Rooks got reset on Friday night, Knits got it earlier in the afternoon (probably night on east coast)

Basically we reversed positions, we were in the hole, and rooks got reset.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #39 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:25:22 PM »

Apache,

Knights beat out the Bishops for the reset around 10 pm EST by reducing us Rooks to 1 base (terrain was Mindanao). Rooks then beat out the Bishop for the reset (terrain was Big Lake) by reducing the Knights to 1 base a little past 3 am EST .. about 5+ hours later.

There was no formal alliance between the Bishops and Knights. But I think the Bishops were pissed off at losing not winning the reset and attacked Knights and of course the Rooks were not happy about being crushed so also attacked Knights. Nothing breeds jealousy like success.

Anyway there was some light action going on between the Bishops and Rooks up north which didn't really heat up (say more than 20+ each side so 40 pilots in North) until after 1 am and then the Bishops got more serious about trying to take bases up there so Rooks wouldn't win the reset.

J_A_B · « **Reply #40 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:27:11 PM »

I see something wrong with it when maps are being reset in 6 hours or less. Bases are FAR too easy to capture.

J_A_B

lazs2 · « **Reply #41 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:29:20 PM »

midnight... (I will have to ask my daughter but wasn't one of the "my pretty ponie" series called "midnight"?)... Nothing wrong with the fields as is except that they need to be slightly (10-20%) closer... slightly less thatn a sector. fighters up till all hangers down (better would be revetments but..). The closer fields would give more people more choice. The fact that you could fly out to meet a group of cons half way would "rob" players from the organized gangbang. They could still get up a raid but it would be harder to find people bored enough to participate.
lazs

Vortex · « **Reply #42 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:36:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ripsnort

Then promote the DA, they put the DA up when you squeaked about not enough furballing back over a year ago! Then you had the balls to thumb your nose at it!

For the record, the only 3 that agree, or semi-agree with Laz so far in this thread are all his squaddies.

I'm outta this thread, too much Laz "Me Me Me".

Just as an aside Rip, the Dueling Arena was locked down the last few weeks. Recently Spit V's have been enabled at the 3 furball fields but that's it. I'm not sure if this is normal, or new, or what the poop is. In short though without all fighters enabled there's not much to promote.

Vortex

ghostdancer · « **Reply #43 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:38:51 PM »

J_A_B,

To some extent I agree that bases are far too easy to capture. When they are hit by an organized force or there is an organized assault going on against a country with 3 strike forces and bombers supporting you can really watch bases fall fast as the unorganized / uncoordinate defenders simply can't react fast enough or well enough to stop the organized attack.

As skernsk pointed out the only real defense against an organized attack is an organized defense.

So even if you make the bases tougher to capture I still think they will fall just not as fast. The key all comes down to the defenders (people actually flying).

Fastest we ever did a reset in the 5 official RJO joint ops was 3 hours the other two were 4 hr 45 minutes, and then 5 + hours. Other two did not get resets.

--

Last night by the way was just a pickup game where several Rooks squads were on at the same time and decided they did not like being down to 6 bases only (around 9 pm EST) and decided to do something about it.

eddiek · « **Reply #44 on:** January 21, 2002, 12:41:11 PM »

"it boils down to.... do you like 30 v 30 fights or 30 vs 1. desillys, sunchaser and eddiek can't disguise that."

No need to disguise anything. The MA is what it is, a complex arena, with all types of players, some looking to be part of organized raids, at one end of the spectrum, and some, like you, who only want to get into action with a minimal time in transit. Funny thing is, they can and DO co-exist right now, as we speak.
"30 vs 1"? Looks like somebody either greatly overestimates his ability, or is just plain nuts if they up at a field with those kinds of numbers facing him. Or, more likely, both.
If you look back, Lazs, you will see that I was one of those who used to clammer for more 1v1 fights, or at least ones with smaller numbers. But, unlike you, I saw that everyone has the right to fly the way THEY want, and when I reached that point, it all made sense to me. I could accept the fact that I was not in control of anyone other than myself, or I could quit.
Looks like you need to look at AH overall and decide if this is where you really wanna be...........if you can't accept that not all of us want to do what you want, you are never going to be happy here.