stick stirring

[Shane]

only one person mentioned fw's. i'm seeign it across a variety of plane types.

it's a simple matter of desperation in conjunction with cluelessness on stick scaling and damping. which is why i say the "do not move" routine needs ot be ratched up a notch or 2.

case in point: i tried a new stick setting last nite, and while off line tried an actual stick stir and got the message, then, while leaving the scaling in place (almost 100% all the way across as opposed to my former graduated scaling) i futzed with dampers to the point where trying the same manuver did not result in the message. however, i'm unsure whether it'd still be perceived as fish flopping on line, since i'm below the current "thresh-hold."

fwiw i really rack around in my p51 stangfire and upon repeated queries have never been said to appear fish-floppy. i hope that holds with my new scaling, and frankly, i'm quite sure it will as i have my dampers up more to avoid the rubberband nose bounce effect for better gunnery than just enough to avoid the do not message.

there is a big difference between warps, snaprolls, spins, slight flopping in wind layers, and fish-flopping manuvering in desperation.

i sure as hell have never seen anyone fishflop on *my* 6.

anyway, crank up the routine!!  or tweak the coding.

[Wotan]

heres a situation Verm may recall..........

I was climbing out afk at about 16k I return to my desk see a 109 with 3k alt we dance around a bit hes smart keeping above using his superior climb. We danced for a good 3-5min. I was able to avoid his passses but was locked with no real chance to reverse.

A co-alt p51 shows up and they are working together to keep me on the defensive. I spot a co-alt la7 ib 4k out cutting my ability to run for my squaddies. Again I hold them off 4 a couple of minutes.

I spot a lo p51 and made a dive toward him which would allow me to get some speed and circle back toward a squaddie that was ib.

As am Iam doing this I spot a higher f4u to to hi 12 of the 51 whose 6 I am coming in on. The lo 51 breaks left and Im no dumb bellybutton I dont follow and continue a lo g right turn away from the f4u whos is circling around.

He gets to d700 or so Im not worried I am much faster and as I pull away i get the customary d700 and beyond spray and pray all the way out to d900 my fe. Again np with my speed and lo g turn he cant track me to get any good line on me.

At this point the 109 and 51 were coming faster hi my 6. The 109 looks like compression caught him because he about augered but pulled up in a direction away from me.

The 51 though is hauling arse. He gets to d550 my fe so and I roll left abit and to do a quick break turn and as I do my left aileron gets nailed but the 51 is too fast he cant follow.

I look over my right shoulder as I begin a barrel roll back to the right using very little rudder to keep speed. the 51 is right where i want him. Hes fast but as i roll to his 6 I will have a snap shot at about d350 and extending.

At this point the f4u is all over  me so instead of trying to get to the 51 I add more right ailern and more rudder taking myself out of plane with the f4u.

I put my nose str8 down at the water. Now if this guys a n00b he will auger and I may have a chance to escape.

I am watching over my shoulder as the f4 manages to follow me down. He had to bleed some e and i saw him "wobble" abit as if he was fighting a stall or spin.

He gets "clean" and as I add a bit of right aileron to keep out of plane I pull up using elevator trim. I see the f4u actually disappear into the terrain. I had thought he augered but i then see him pop back up at d200 or so. I've seen this before prob a difference in my fe and his. He seeing he just made it and my seeing him a bit lower.

Now its all over I cant escape the f4 has me and kills me quick.

I type "lol you flew right through the water"

a few minutes later I get on private channel
"Nice stick stirring back there :-)"

Now I've seen this guy post on the board about stick stirring so I am not sure if hes telling me I am a cheater or what so I ask him not to private message me but to use channel 1.

I mention his d900 spray and pray but it just feeds him. So I ask him to not type to me which is to no avail.

Finally I squelch umm.

The whole thing wa less then 2 min and I my whole flight on my end was smooth with no more then 4 "manuvres".

Its quite possible whatever he was seeing on his fe was different and if this is the case a lot of the current "stick stir" hysteria is pure bs.

I know stick stirrin happens but not everything you "see" is stick stirrin.

Now on my fe I saw that guy go through the water. Does he use a terrain cheat? or is it lag? Or maybe my "stick stirrin" got me dizzy and I disdn't really see it

[Krusher]

Originally posted by Shane
it's becoming way more prevalent. i think HT needs to crank up the do not move your controls so rapidly routine - and before people whine about sensitive sticks/spiking, let me remind them there's a nice feature called scaling and deadband/dampers that if tweaked enough will eliminate the message.

stick stirring, whether deliberate or out of ignorance/laziness is becoming too prevalent.

bull toejam...not everyone that gets that message is stirring. And before you give me some roadkill about dead bands and dampening let me point out that that dosnt always work.

the damn thing needs to be turned off completly. If you can hit whats in front of you break off and find somthing you can hit.

[Apache]

I understand what you're saying wotan, however, I've been doing this "hobby" a long time. I know an intentional "stick stir" when I see it. It is a move of desperation by someone who doesn't know what to do in a given situation or has gotten used to "gaming the game". I think alot of us fly these vistual aircraft in a way we "think" they were intended. Some don't.

I think it's time to fire up another web site. I've got plenty of films from the past several weeks, (especially from lastnight) but have no media to share them. A searchable, public, films database is in order I think. Looks like I got work to do.

[Shane]

you're aware that you need to click "ok" *and* "apply" for new stick settings to take effect.

it's either a) deliberate b) cluelessness or c) refresh coding, i.e. fw rollrates.

show me a floppy-fish "stick" that *can't* be suffciently calibrated and tweaked to avoid the floppiness, and if you peel off a flopper, he'll just rev on you and get back on you and shoot you down w/o flopping on your 6, or tie you up until someone arrives to save his ass.

don't confuse flopping with the rubberband nose bounce, i still experience some of that, but have never been claimed to appear fish-floppy.


i've played enough to be able to distingush the various degrees of floppiness from a variety of causes, thank you, and for the most part a lot could simply be reduced by proper *scaling* or dampers or a combo of the two.

for the most part, i'd say it's just general cluelessness in conjunction with laziness/wtfgas-ness.

[Wotan]

I agree with you apache and I've been in ah over 2 years and see it too.

But what happens when every other guy rushes to the bbs everyday with "stick stirring" its gonna feed a lot guys who simply cant shoot or who will not know the difference between intentional stick stirrin and lag.

Hype feeds a lot of stuff that happens here.

I am not sure what anyone else sees but when I was told i was stick stirrin I never made any "hard" manuvre except to use trim to pull out of a lo alt dive.

I fly 190s when ever I out manuvre some one I will get bombarded with "you stick stirrer"

[Apache]

Good points wotan.

[Lephturn]

It's just a problem with network connections most times.  I almost never see this.  I think folks are seeing it more lately because of the big load on the AH servers and some of the connection problems we have been seeing because of it.  We all know that HTC is working hard to improve the connections, so I expect this will improve things.

I used to get accused of "stick stirring" all the time by a couple of folks in particular.  My "stick stirring" was simply guns defense, short fast rolls with short hard pulls to jink and try and keep from getting shot.  It's not stick stirring to try to avoid getting shot, but if their are network problems somewhere in the you-host-him circuit, it may appear that way.  This is basic guns defense, not stick stirring in any way, so becareful who you accuse.

In addition... stick stirring doesn't work very well.  A real stick stirrer will simply flop around from side to side, but won't really change his direction of motion.  By simply staying behind him you can simply gun him to death with little trouble.  Now if he's warping with some displacement, and changing flight path in big jumps, it's simply warps.  Yep, warping makes it hard to shoot somebody, but that doesn't mean the guy is "stick stirring".

If you are seeing everybody "stick stirring" with regularity, I'd bet you are seeing warps.  If you see lots of warps, that would point to a connection problem in your route to HTC.  Everybody is subject to Internet problems from time to time, and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if you are connected with a 28.8 modem or a T1 line, problems still occur.  If you are seeing lots of warping like that, don't accuse others... dig out ping plotter (http://www.pingplotter.com) and do some diagnoses to figure out what the problem is.

[Am0n]

You cant really blame them for calling you a stick stir'r wotan, im not accusing of such things. but as previously noted the 190 rolls fast than the netcode can keep up with it apears. Ive been acused of it several times in a p47, ecspecialy at high speeds when it really has the rolling edge over most AC.


also been acused of "floppy fish" buy a good pilot, which i still have no idea what the hell is.. All i done was panic and pull up to and to the right hard and went into a very fast stall spin, thats all i can think of.

[Apache]

Originally posted by Lephturn
It's just a problem with network connections most times.  I almost never see this.  I think folks are seeing it more lately because of the big load on the AH servers and some of the connection problems we have been seeing because of it.  We all know that HTC is working hard to improve the connections, so I expect this will improve things.

I used to get accused of "stick stirring" all the time by a couple of folks in particular.  My "stick stirring" was simply guns defense, short fast rolls with short hard pulls to jink and try and keep from getting shot.  It's not stick stirring to try to avoid getting shot, but if their are network problems somewhere in the you-host-him circuit, it may appear that way.  This is basic guns defense, not stick stirring in any way, so becareful who you accuse.

In addition... stick stirring doesn't work very well.  A real stick stirrer will simply flop around from side to side, but won't really change his direction of motion.  By simply staying behind him you can simply gun him to death with little trouble.  Now if he's warping with some displacement, and changing flight path in big jumps, it's simply warps.  Yep, warping makes it hard to shoot somebody, but that doesn't mean the guy is "stick stirring".

If you are seeing everybody "stick stirring" with regularity, I'd bet you are seeing warps.  If you see lots of warps, that would point to a connection problem in your route to HTC.  Everybody is subject to Internet problems from time to time, and it doesn't make a damn bit of difference if you are connected with a 28.8 modem or a T1 line, problems still occur.  If you are seeing lots of warping like that, don't accuse others... dig out ping plotter (http://www.pingplotter.com) and do some diagnoses to figure out what the problem is.

I'm a network engineer by profession now. I know all the tricks. This is "stick stirring". Not wanting to be argumentative, but want to make it clear that it (stick stirring, not warping. No attitude change) is happening.

[Drano]

Dunno if its maybe a thing with certain kinds of sticks or what but I don't recall ever getting the stick stir message. Really. I'm running a CH F-16 Fighterstick with a Pro Throttle and TM pedals. All are analog.

                         Drano

Originally posted by Shane
it's becoming way more prevalent. i think HT needs to crank up the do not move your controls so rapidly routine - and before people whine about sensitive sticks/spiking, let me remind them there's a nice feature called scaling and deadband/dampers that if tweaked enough will eliminate the message.

stick stirring, whether deliberate or out of ignorance/laziness is becoming too prevalent.

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Apache


I'm a network engineer by profession now. I know all the tricks. This is "stick stirring". Not wanting to be argumentative, but want to make it clear that it (stick stirring, not warping. No attitude change) is happening.

I know that YOU understand Apache, but I wasn't replying to you directly.  I'm just pointing out that a lot of the time when folks start throwing around these terms, they confuse regular old warps with "stick stirring".  I'm just pointing out what other things can appear like "stick stirring" but are not, for the benefit of folks reading this thread that may not understand the difference.  Certainly most of the calls of "stick stirring" I've heard over the years online were really warps, and not stick stirring at all.

And to a certain extent, it will always happen.  We simply have planes that can roll very fast or spin and roll faster than the net code can keep up with.  I rarely see what I would call a real "stick stir" happen... I've almost never seen it.  Now granted I don't get nearly as much time to fly as many of you folks do, but I've been around a little while.  I accept that some of you are seeing real stick-stirring though.  My point is that real stick-stirring is mostly useless as a guns defense since your plane of motion doesn't change much if at all, so I don't really see the problem if a few folks do it until they learn better.  The danger here is that you can both reduce the effectiveness of planes that rely on fast roll and make it more difficult for those with cheap controllers to play the game.  HTC has to be very careful not to harm newbies with cheap joysticks in an effort to stop a behaviour that isn't really a big problem anyway.

What should you do (and I mean everybody here, not speaking to you directly Apache) if you see somebody stick-stirring?  Smile and kill them.  After a while they'll learn that it's not an effective guns defense.  If what you see IS an effective guns defense, then it's not really stick stirring at all, it's a warp, and that's an entirely different issue.

[FLS]

I only get the 'don't move controls so fast' message when I'm correcting my aim attacking. In my 3 weeks in AH I've never gotten it during evasives. My stick doesn't spike and is properly calibrated. I don't consider adding damping a solution. Mushy controls are less 'real' then responsive controls. There's a lot to like in AH but not being able to aggressively maneuver for a shot is ludicrous.

Gamers who count their kills before they get them will always whine about something whether it's stick stirring, warping, ramming, aircraft choices, or simply using good tactics.  470 people online last night and every warp is a cheat? Air to air gunnery is supposed to be difficult. God forbid we ever get wake turbulence. The anti-stick stirring code is a compromise that reduces flight realism to offset the effects of net lag. Net lag can't be eliminated but flight realism can certainly be reduced further, I just don't think it's a good idea. I think the code should be turned down not up.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[Vermillion]

Edit: Your right, its not worth it

[Apache]

Originally posted by Lephturn


I know that YOU understand Apache, but I wasn't replying to you directly.  I'm just pointing out that a lot of the time when folks start throwing around these terms, they confuse regular old warps with "stick stirring".  I'm just pointing out what other things can appear like "stick stirring" but are not, for the benefit of folks reading this thread that may not understand the difference.  Certainly most of the calls of "stick stirring" I've heard over the years online were really warps, and not stick stirring at all.

And to a certain extent, it will always happen.  We simply have planes that can roll very fast or spin and roll faster than the net code can keep up with.  I rarely see what I would call a real "stick stir" happen... I've almost never seen it.  Now granted I don't get nearly as much time to fly as many of you folks do, but I've been around a little while.  I accept that some of you are seeing real stick-stirring though.  My point is that real stick-stirring is mostly useless as a guns defense since your plane of motion doesn't change much if at all, so I don't really see the problem if a few folks do it until they learn better.  The danger here is that you can both reduce the effectiveness of planes that rely on fast roll and make it more difficult for those with cheap controllers to play the game.  HTC has to be very careful not to harm newbies with cheap joysticks in an effort to stop a behaviour that isn't really a big problem anyway.

What should you do (and I mean everybody here, not speaking to you directly Apache) if you see somebody stick-stirring?  Smile and kill them.  After a while they'll learn that it's not an effective guns defense.  If what you see IS an effective guns defense, then it's not really stick stirring at all, it's a warp, and that's an entirely different issue.

Understood Leph. Thanks