Tactical maneuver or Dweeb trick?

[pimpjoe]

whots a dweeb move?

is it a move that some fighter jock who thinks he's ace of the day cant seem to figure out how to avoid gettin killed by?

lag is an advantage....use it.

[Xjazz]

Originally posted by -pjk--
Just  curious,  is  AH using  knots or mph?, i know  AH do not use km/h.

Potkaiskaa niitä perseeseen!!

pjk

Hehhee! Aika paha PJK!

Aces High käyttää ainoastaan mph nopeutta vaikka Ryssät ja Sakut käytti km/h. Nopeus mittarin valkoinen viisari ilmaisee ilmanopeutta (IAS) ja punainen viisari maanopeutta eli tosi nopeutta (TAS).

Korkeus ilmaistaan jalkoina ja ikonin laser etäisyysmittari on jaardeina (n 1m).

Rooksit potkii kaikkia persiiseen!

[Kweassa]

About a week ago I watched a show on History Chanel about the P51. I was thrilled when one of the Aces (Don Blakeslee I think) described this exact maneuver and called it a "snap roll". I immediately went into AH and in offline mode I filmed myself flying straight and level and at a predetermined point I jammed the stick full forward to the left while at the same time jamming in full right rudder. The result was extremely interesting specially when looked at from trailing view with tracks. Anyone up close and personal on your six would surely be disoriented by the sudden move. Try it.
Beeg

 ...

 Isn't this the move called 'Skid'?

 The plane banking into one direction, but goes 'mushy' and the indication of the plane's pitch is totally off from the flight path, thus, confusing the attacker and forces an overshoot??

[funkedup]

pjk mph

[FOGOLD]

Its hillarious someone complaining that someone had pulled off an evasive manouver on them. What do we do, sit there to be shot down?

It reminds me of a story my old man told me (Spit IX's, Italian Theatre 1944). They were beating up HMS Ajax in Salonika harbour for practice and Ajax AA called up "hey you Spits, could you come in a bit higher, we can't bring our guns to bear"

[Shane]

Originally posted by FOGOLD
Its hillarious someone complaining that someone had pulled off an evasive manouver on them. What do we do, sit there to be shot down?

what part of this is it that you fail to understand?

Originally posted by Shane


i'm fairly good about forcing overshoots with barrel rolls, and i've yet to be labeld "fish-floppy" when performing them.

probably because i've taken the time to futz with my scaling and dampers and don't jerk the stick all over when performing this manuver. i hate seeing it, so i'd be hypocritical if i did the same.

it can be done WITHOUT having to appear fish-floppy.

[CRASH]

All this would matter except for one thing, it doesnt matter where the stick stirring bandit actually is, all that matters is where it is on your fe, if he's pullin right and u hit him on your fe, he's dead, he could be going in the opposite direction according to the server or his fe, doesnt matter, you hit him on your fe, he's dead.

CRASH

Originally posted by Dinger
Okay:
Snap roll is basically inducing a spin in level flight.  It works better in WB than AH (I mean, in DOA I could snap roll with precision to fake a split-ess), but some planes do it better than others.  The "stop moving your stick so rapidly" doesn't really work against stick stirring.  It usually catches me when I'm in a buff and switching positions.  But here's how stick-stirring works:

Contrary to popular opinion, it's all about small control movements.  Your position and velocity is updated every half second, so if you do an ailer roll and rudder kick (yes, Andy, a kick) in one direction, then reverse within a half second, the FE will send a roll and yaw speed in one direction, and the pursuer will see you move in that first direction.  Then you'll have reversed, and the opponent's FE will have to update a movement 2-4 times what you actually did.  That's stick stirring.
Often it occurs by pilots who haven't studied much BFM, but who find tha this works.  They have little idea what it looks like on the other side.

[Dinger]

Exactly crash, but if he can do gentle, energy-retaining maneuvers that make him appear to be flopping wildly on the following bogey's FE, obliging him to burn E to stay in the saddle, then he's getting an advantage off of the net code.

500ms is not a question of "Lag" per se.  The code has to be able to accommodate 32 or so planes at a high level of detail (precise location, weapons status, gear, flaps, etc).  That means getting an update every half second and "connecting the dots".  It works pretty well most of the time.

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Dinger
Exactly crash, but if he can do gentle, energy-retaining maneuvers that make him appear to be flopping wildly on the following bogey's FE, obliging him to burn E to stay in the saddle, then he's getting an advantage off of the net code.

The attacker will not have to burn E to stay in the saddle.  He doesn't suddenly stop in mid air, he keeps going with the same speed and direction or pretty damn close when a guy stick stirs, he just spins around a bit un-naturally in terms of attitude.  All the attacker has to do is hold it steady and gun him down... easy.  If you see a guy spinning wildly and slowing dramatically so that you have to dump E to avoid overshooting, chances are he has spun his aircraft, either intentionally or by accident.

Originally posted by Dinger
500ms is not a question of "Lag" per se.  The code has to be able to accommodate 32 or so planes at a high level of detail (precise location, weapons status, gear, flaps, etc).  That means getting an update every half second and "connecting the dots".  It works pretty well most of the time.

And you are correct, that 500 ms is not the latency, it's the interval.  Twice per second (roughly) positional data on the planes around you get sent from the host to your client.  Latency is how long it takes that data to get from the other guy's client, to the host, and then to you.  That latency is actually amazingly low all things considered, and is really only a big issue when high closure rates are involved.  A couple of things to add to this are that aircraft positions are updated much less frequently in stages as they get farther away from you.  You can often see one of these transitions when an enemy gets inside of D4.0, as a small warp sometimes occurs as either he gets updated more frequently or his information is given a higher priority.  No matter how you slice it, HT is some kind of programming god in my book to make it work as well as it does over this huge, messy, unreliable mess we call the Internet.   HT.

To those of us playing the game, this latency issure (lag) is only a big issue at a merge, where there is a very high closure rate.  In that case, you have to remember that what you are seeing is what the bogey did up to 2 seconds ago in an extreme situation.  Mostly this just means you need to mentally subtract from the range at which you either hit your merge moves, or the range at which your opponent can shoot you.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Lephturn


The attacker will not have to burn E to stay in the saddle. He doesn't suddenly stop in mid air, he keeps going with the same speed and direction or pretty damn close when a guy stick stirs, he just spins around a bit un-naturally in terms of attitude. All the attacker has to do is hold it steady and gun him down... easy. If you see a guy spinning wildly and slowing dramatically so that you have to dump E to avoid overshooting, chances are he has spun his aircraft, either intentionally or by accident.
 

you're forgetting you're a jug-head who can afford to hose and spray to hit that wildly flopping bandit.  that flopping can easily make you miss a ton of shots, even more so when he *does* also move off the plane you're trying to hit - they don;y just stay on that plane, but do displace some.

simply put it's a dweeby tactic/netcode issue that needs ot be addressed on two levels - end user and code.  hmmm?

[Vermillion]

Lephturn wrote:

The attacker will not have to burn E to stay in the saddle. He doesn't suddenly stop in mid air, he keeps going with the same speed and direction or pretty damn close when a guy stick stirs, he just spins around a bit un-naturally in terms of attitude. All the attacker has to do is hold it steady and gun him down... easy.

I'm gonna have to heartily disagree with you here Leph.  

No he doesn't stop in mid air, but he moves in a manner where you can't get a solid guns solution. He doesn't just spin around a single axis, they flop back and forth left to right rapidly, with the aircraft randomly blinking in and out of view (depending on his connect quality), or in  case of near stall speed stick stiring the aircraft can literally displace 2-3 wingspans at a time, in all 3 dimensions

Then either you eventually run out of ammo, say in an aircraft like the Yak-9U or a Me109, or he buys himself enough time to get to ack or follow on friendlies.

Yes, you may eventually get him, but he has by this time burned your ammo, your E, or put you in an extremely disadvantageous position against his countrymen.

Your looking at this from a merely 1 v 1 situation (and mainly from a P47 with 8 .50's and loads of ammo), and not a many vs many situation which is the normal in the main arena.  

Two totally different things.

People Stick stir and warp roll because it works.  

And I counter with this arguement.  If stick stirring is such a 'non-issue' as you claim, why did HiTech implement the 'anti-stir' code in the first place? Obviously, he thought is was a problem.

[Beegerite]

Nope, this maneuver is called a snap roll and as I said in another post the best way to appreciate it is to do what I described while filming it.  You'll see what I'm talking about.  I suspect that what you call a skid is a level flight slip which means that you apply either left or right aileron and opposite rudder while holding altitude with the elevators.  This cross controlled situation causes the fuselage of the aircraft to be banked into the relative wind (direction of travel) while the application of opposite rudder prevents the airplane from turning in the direction of the bank.  This has two effects; 1. you get a super drag situation totally destroying E and what may help you is that the bandit thinks you're going one way while you're actually heading in another direction.  When he attempts to lead the shot to where he thinks you're gonna be you'll be somewhere else.

Beeg

Originally posted by Kweassa


 ...

 Isn't this the move called 'Skid'?

 The plane banking into one direction, but goes 'mushy' and the indication of the plane's pitch is totally off from the flight path, thus, confusing the attacker and forces an overshoot??

[Tumor]

Originally posted by pimpjoe
whots a dweeb move?

is it a move that some fighter jock who thinks he's ace of the day cant seem to figure out how to avoid gettin killed by?

lag is an advantage....use it.

How very gamey of you.  Go back to Quake.

[Tac]

Interesting Quake analogy:

Stick stirring is Quake's bunny-hopping to avoid getting hit.

[pimpjoe]

ROFL tumor...it just gets old reading about how people cant seem to figure out how avoid getting killed by a move that is tooo easy to counter. just cut throttle and get real close...a short burst takes care of them real easy.

quit yer whinin and go back to killin:)