Tactical maneuver or Dweeb trick?

[Shane]

a) it's not a snap roll, a snap roll goes consistently in one direction and doesn't show the nose and tail bobbling on rubber bands up to 45 degrees.

b) it's not always easy to "get real close", especially when both are slow, of comparable speed or when in pursuit of a fish flopping faster plane, these fish flops result in not one whit of loss of e or speed.

c) this effect can be greatly reduced, 85% i'd wager by simply players tweaking their scaling/dampers, which would be forced if they started getting the "do not move" message, no? maybe the remaining 15% could be done by further netcode tweaking?

these are *not* warps. it's simply a visual of a plane doing something that just isn't physically possible, unless it's tumbling out of control in a flat spin, which they aren't.  it's a player induced effect.

[pimpjoe]

i still dont get it.

you are whining about a move.

whats next...whining about who somebody wings with?

[Dinger]

You know, we could solve the academic part of this debate very easily with a trip to the TA and the film recorder.  Somebody look me up when I'm in the MA (CFIT), and I'll try my best at stick stirring.

[Shane]

pointing out dweeby gamers who detract from the experience.

you're quite the flopstar at times too, is that why you're so defensive, it'd be taking away your limited survival skills?

[Hangtime]

Its dweeb trick. gamey. unrealistic. X-wing is NOT what I'm here to play.

Hope HTC tweaks up the stir code again.

Soon.

[pimpjoe]

yes shane...you have it all figured out...that is my ONLY defensive move, and will die constantly without it:rolleyes:

[Vermillion]

Actually Dinger its not that simple.

The rate at which the gun cam film records positional updates, and the rate which your FE recieves them online and then interprets thru the smoothing code are different in my experience.

Just like film sometimes doesn't show warping, it commonly won't show stick stirring.

[airspro]

No he doesn't stop in mid air, but he moves in a manner where you can't get a solid guns solution. He doesn't just spin around a single axis, they flop back and forth left to right rapidly, with the aircraft randomly blinking in and out of view (depending on his connect quality), or in case of near stall speed stick stiring the aircraft can literally displace 2-3 wingspans at a time, in all 3 dimensions

This is what I see happing , anyone with alot of onine time can spot the differance IMO between this and the other moves .

[Lephturn]

Ok, fair enough guys, I do look at this issue from a jug pilot's point of view.  I also have not seen this behaviour in a long time, and I've been flying a bit lately.

Also, I seem to see something a bit different from what you guys are seeing, but that's possibly again because I tend to fly a bird that encourages me to be well above stall speed most of the time.  What I see isn't a big deal, but at slower speeds with more displacement, I can see your point.

The problem is that there are plenty of VALID moves that can trigger the stick stirring code if you tighten it down too much.  I'm already trying to help new folks who are accidentally triggering the stick stirring code simply trying to line up a shot.  Sure, the are over-controlling, but we all did that when we started.  However, instead of just missing, they are locking up and getting killed.  So from my point of view I don't think you could "tighten" the sensitivity of the stick stirring code without causing lots more problems.

So my question to you all is this... how do you differentiate stick stirring from a new user simply over-controlling trying to line up a shot?  How do you prevent stick stirring without locking up that guy?  I think HT is right on the critical balance point with the code he has now, and any more restrictive will cause a LOT more problems in my view.

Also, I think testing and filming is a good idea.  Sure, it might not show up on the film... but it also might.  Even if it doesn't show on film properly, the positional data comparison if you film it from both sides might give HT something to look at.  It's worth a shot.

[Shane]

Originally posted by Lephturn
Ok, fair enough guys, I do look at this issue from a jug pilot's point of view.  I also have not seen this behaviour in a long time, and I've been flying a bit lately.

So my question to you all is this... how do you differentiate stick stirring from a new user simply over-controlling trying to line up a shot?  How do you prevent stick stirring without locking up that guy?  I think HT is right on the critical balance point with the code he has now, and any more restrictive will cause a LOT more problems in my view.

two words:  scaling/damping.

by tightening up the routine, perhaps more would be "encouraged" to properly dampen/scale their sticks instead of leaving them 100% scaled and 0% deadband/damper.

no one *needs* or *can't avoid* fish flopping - it *can* and should be adjusted out.

I'm a proud non-flopstar.

[mrsid2]

Shane he was talking about unintentional overcontrolling, not ba d stick scaling or deadband.

However I think that the stick stirring code could be an effective way to teach the newbie out of the overcontrolling moves..

Stick stirring code isn't getting them killed. It's their lack of skill that gets them killed - even if it's via stick stir code in this situation.

[Shane]

Originally posted by mrsid2
Shane he was talking about unintentional overcontrolling, not ba d stick scaling or deadband.

a teensy weensy bit of deadband would help here, too.

if by chasing the micro-adjustments, which (would) results in a stick-stirring routine trigger, this means the player's stick input is overly senstive and would benefit greatly from proper scaling and db/d.

this type of issue has nothing to do with the floppy-fish thing we've been referring to, altho' i can see how it is/could be an issue for many people - and i maintain this type of trigger can be tweaked right out with proper scaling db/b.

[CRASH]

I dont know...after reading all the posts again in my experience and opinion it comes down to this, the guys that "stick stir" and flop around like fish are generally near stall speed, are overcontrolling the a/c and simply appear to be flopping around their cg, easy targets.  If ya miss, pull up, conserve ur e and come back down again, simple.  If you get yourself into a rolling scissors with some guy thats doin that and get yourself shot down, it's your own damn fault.  Absolutely no reason to start messin' with the code IMO.  The only guys I have a problem hitting are the guys that overcontrol and spin.  Those a/c apear to move laterally several wingspans and are damn near impossible to hit.  If HT starts messin with the code lookin to fix something, I think that should be it.  
     On to a better point, if ya dont like "stick stirrin" dweebs, lookin' for good clean fights,  fly the ct

CRASH

[sourkraut]

Agree with you Crash.
Last night I was climbing in a P51 with autospeed set to 155. I was typing away not paying attention and a rook P51 drops in on me (Midnight). Going so slow, my only manuever was to try to roll over and dive. Since speed was low and my nose was up, I stalled and went into a spin. As I struggled to get out of the spin, I am thinking 3 things - 1) I'm dead; 2) This guy must think I am a dweeb for getting jumped so easily; 3) I hope this guy doesn't think I am stick stirring.

[MikeKA]

Originally posted
Unfortunately, we must ad the LAG factor into this manuever which means it really goes both ways.  Performing the manuever is completely valid.  Performing the manuever while playing to the net lag makes it dweebish as hell.

I will never limit my self to certain moves or planes simply because certain people think other options are "dweebish".  Call me a dweeb but I'll still be alive.  Also, I absolutely refuse to increase my stick dampening to prevent the "appearance" of floppy-fish (whatever the hell that is ).  I never have tried to cause my plane to warp in a fight in any sim.  Likewise I never get the stick stirring message in combat.  However, if in AH certain moves cause warps, (I don't believe they generally do, because, frankly I see maybe 1 warp a day) then thats a problem with AH not the pilot.  Adapt to the game because it is online and it will change.  If performing manuver x causes a plane to appear to nose up and dive down backwards, the pilot had better be prepared for that so it doesn't catch you off guard so much.