Author Topic: The false realism of canopy frames  (Read 1864 times)

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
The false realism of canopy frames
« on: January 24, 2002, 09:08:08 AM »
Having spent well over 2,300 hours in military aircraft, there is one thing that flight sims generally show, that in really interferes with outward vision. Canopy frames. If anyone has actually sat in one of these aircraft, you quickly realize that you simply do not notice the canopy frame. Why? Because one merely tips or turns one's head to see over and around them as an automatic reflex. Really, you don't notice them at all because they are no longer within your focal range. You simply look through them. It's different when a portion of the airframe blocks your view, but canopy frames become, essentially, invisible in the cognitive sense.

To get it right, canopy frames should be thinned and "ghosted" (darkly), so you can see through them to reflect normal human stereoscopic vision, wherein you see the same effect. Here's a simple test to prove my point: When was the last time you noticed the A pillar (at the edge of you car's windshield) on your car? Do you have any memory of it blocking your view? Think about it. Such obstacles to vision effectively cease to exist when you can move your head intuitively, which you cannot do in this type of simulation. If any here have flown a military simulator, you would understand my point. I understand that from a graphical point of view, the canopy frames need to be visible. However, the functional reality, they do not.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline K West

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1445
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2002, 09:37:29 AM »
Widewing, I understand completely what you are saying. I agree with a lot of it. But I think HTC chose to go the way of a "movable" pilot positiont where you can move inside the cockpit:  forward, backward, left right as wel as  up and down.  It just helps to have enough buttons on your stick/throttle setup to utilise this feature.

 Westy

Offline GRUNHERZ

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 13413
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2002, 09:44:21 AM »
I notice my A pilar often in tight blind downhill turns to the left, you cant see whats behind it- kinda inconvenient huh?

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2002, 09:58:22 AM »
I can't figure what is an A pillar can someone explain it to me ?

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2002, 10:41:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
I can't figure what is an A pillar can someone explain it to me ?


Sure, automobiles generally have three pillars, A, B and C. Ultimately, these pillars provide roof support as well as window support.

The A pillars support the windshield. B pillars provide structural strength for the roof and are usually directly between the doors (on a 4 door car). Finally, the C pillars support the rear window (back light).  

Below is a photo of a Mazda that shows the 3 pillars from the right-rear view. Here you see the C pillar, the B pillar between the side windows and the A pillar alongside the the windshield edge.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2002, 10:42:18 AM »
Straffo, he's discussing what I would call a "windshield post".  The portion of a car that supports the roof, located between the hood and the roof.

Widewing, while I agree with your post I'm not sure what the solution is.  This has been discussed many times over, and I've never really seen a solution that could be implemented in a fair way.

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2002, 10:45:50 AM »
ty I got it ...

For the front view we can use the Keypad 8 view saved with another head position ...
It provide us an altenate front view (to get ride of those ù*^$
^ frames ;))

But there is nothing for the other positions ...(dunno if it would be usable to have an altenate position for the other views ...)

Offline Hooligan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 889
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2002, 10:49:43 AM »
Quote

To get it right, canopy frames should be thinned and "ghosted"


This seems like a good solution to me.  Unfortunately, I expect that it would be a huge amount of work and create endless lamenting by "realism" fanatics.

Hooligan

Offline Tac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4085
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2002, 11:45:25 AM »
I certainly would agree to having them "thinned" , but not ghosted out. The do block some of the view regardless. Thinning them to about 50% of their thickness would be a nice compromise IMO. Specially in the 109's.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23048
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2002, 12:00:17 PM »
I notice tha A and B posts on my truck frequently.  Don't really notice the C posts though.  Odd.

Generally I notice the driver's side A post when I am making a sharp turn to the left.  I notice the B post when changing lanes.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2002, 12:19:50 PM »
I have always thought that Icons disappearing behind canopy frames is way over done.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2002, 12:20:10 PM »
Good post Widewing.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2002, 01:29:40 PM »
AH allows you to move your viewpoint around. I feel this is a good comprimise, although it might do good to have the viewpoint actually move a little quicker.    Having clear cockpit bracing is IMO crossing the line--looking around something and looking through it are two different things, although perhaps the ICONS disappearing might be unnecessary.   Cockpit bracing most definately WAS a factor in WW2, why else would manufacturers have begun to use less aerodynamic "bubble" canopies?


J_A_B

Offline Raubvogel

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3882
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2002, 01:33:26 PM »
I agree, some of the planes are ridiculous to try to look out of. Transparent frames probably aren't the answer, but thinning them a bit might work. The 205 is like flying in a jail cell.

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
The false realism of canopy frames
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2002, 02:03:09 PM »
I just want to point out that this sim has real 3D planes that your viewpoint sits inside of.  That means that making a change is not as simple as it may seem.

To make a change like that suggested above would mean modifying the 3D shape of every aircraft in the game.  It would also mean that these canopy frames and rails would look very different from outside as well as inside.

I don't think changing them as suggested is viable in a sim that uses real 3D objects instead of 2D "cockpit art".  On the flip side, I think that the fact that you can move your head position and save it for every single view is a reasonable compromise for the cockpit frames being somewhat more restrictive to your view than they would be in real life.

As for the icon obstruction, while having the icons not dissapear also sounds like a reasonable change, I'm not sure AH's client software can tell the difference between a canopy frame and say, a wing.  It does sound like a nice compromise, I'm just not sure it's something HT can do... well at least not easily. :)