Author Topic: Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue) (Read 2183 times)

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #75 on:** February 04, 2002, 11:16:14 AM »

I had a Yak lower than me and not only did it spiral climb with me, itgained and eventually got to me...Seeing as I also had about 1k alt and good E at the outset, I got suprised at that...Maybe I need to re-read the specs, in AW FR, Yaks couldnt do that (few planes could)...I was in the -4.

Zeke could climb to alt well, but couldnt hang with many US planes with regards to spiral climbing, her plant was too weakly powered. They will hang themselves eventually if you can keep just out of guns range.

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #76 on:** February 04, 2002, 11:38:19 AM »

Oh I almost forgot...I was in a -D, NOT a -4, sorry...
Thanks to this thread I changed my mind, and I too would like to see the -4 unperked or w/ less points. 60 is way too much considering the Dora's capabilities and the -4's "hit me" logo on the fuselage. It's fun ride, but it draws a crowd.

In all honesty, what are the chances of its perk status being adjusted?

Vermillion · « **Reply #77 on:** February 04, 2002, 02:58:47 PM »

Red Tail wrote:

Quote

I had a Yak lower than me and not only did it spiral climb with me, itgained and eventually got to me...Seeing as I also had about 1k alt and good E at the outset, I got suprised at that...Maybe I need to re-read the specs, in AW FR, Yaks couldnt do that (few planes could)...

Heheheh

Realize that there are two Yak's in Aces High. The Yak-9T, and the Yak-9U

The Yak in Air Warrior was the Yak-9D.

The Yak-9T and the Yak-9D are similar except for armament differences, but the Yak-9U was the late war version that had a much more powerful engine.

The Yak-9U is one of the best vertical fighters in the game.

That would be like the difference between the Spit IX and the Spit XIV. Two very different beasties'

Rebel · « **Reply #78 on:** February 04, 2002, 03:25:19 PM »

Quote

Good things about it is, turn rate, like all F4u's it can turn with most E fighters, 1 or 2 notches of flaps and it turns really well. It climbs good and got a good deck speed, it's is only slightly faster at the deck the the 109 G10 (I know, I had to run from 2x109's and a bunch of others for 5 minutes).
The best thing about it, I think, is most likely the acceleration in a dive, picks up speed as if the devil was on its 6.

Hehehe, that she does

BTW, if you're turning the Hog, you're doing something wrong- she only turns well enough for you to *think* she can turn n' burn....which is why a lot of guys hate her guts

(she's a tricky lil' gal)

Eagle-

The stats you posted, while interesting, can be somewhat misleading. I worked in the market research industry for a couple of years, and I learned that a survey is only as good as the people who take it.

If you're just throwing up kill to death ratios of planes in the MA, you'll find several common themes-

Popular planes (i.e. the P51) get flown more often.
Easy to fly planes (i.e. the LA7 and the Spits) get flown more often.

You HAVE to take into account the general mindset of the average MA pilot.

How many P51's do you see trying to turn n' burn? Or even *attempt* to B&Z, and fail miserably?

A well flown e-fighter such as the F4u series, the P51, and even the Jugs are very rare indeed.

If all pilots understood even the basics of energy retention, vertical vs. horizontal maneuvering, and fighting the e-fight, the stats would be VERY different for the E-fighters. I bet the P51 would probably come out on top, followed closely by the F4u series (sans the Chog), then the Spits (an e-fightin spit is a most terrible thing to face).

But your stats are very interesting from the fact that the average pilot does MUCH better in the C-hog then the -1D. I can tell you why- the guns. All you need to do is sneeze in the general direction of your opponent, and he's goin down. One lil' snapshot with those things (i.e. a turnfight gone bad, you only get ONE shot) and it's all over.

The Me-262 OTOH- that thing is just too damned fast NOT to have an incredible Kill to Death ratio.

Regarding the Tempest- WOW. That's a big KTD. I have to check that thing out later

The TA152 stat would probably hold more bearing in the CT arena. The MA is not a place to be running stats on hi-alt energy superfighters, hehehe

Regarding Red-Tail,
Hi!

Quote

I had a Yak lower than me and not only did it spiral climb with me, itgained and eventually got to me...Seeing as I also had about 1k alt and good E at the outset, I got suprised at that...Maybe I need to re-read the specs, in AW FR, Yaks couldnt do that (few planes could)

In a spiral climb vs. a Yak (or anything else for that matter), you HAVE to have a HUGE climb advantage. Spiral climbs are a very dangerous proposition in any given scenario- the only fighter I've ever seen successfully pull it off is the 109 series (mostly late).

I can tell you exactly what happened- your speed eventually dropped, you lost your climbing advantage (it was sort of a lazy zoom), his bigger HP/weight ratio took over, and caught up with you. That's why you died.

The F4u simply does not have the climb rate to perform this maneuver with pretty much any fighter in the MA. While her climb IS good for an e-fighter (especially one of her size), she's no superman.

If you did a spiral ZOOM climb, OTOH, that's a different story- an F4U with WEP going into a steep chandelle is a thing of beauty. Her roll rate allows you to flick the bad guy into your lift vector in half a second flat, and set up for the kill. Just make sure the bad guy is MUCH slower.

Quote

In all honesty, what are the chances of its perk status being adjusted?

If the case is the rarity of the machine- then probably not.

But, based on testimony from more then a few pilots in the MA, I believe we could probably persuade HT or Pyro to at least half it.

As I said, I haven't flown it yet in the MA. Once I do, I'll have a better ground for argument under my feet. Only 30 more perks to go!

F4UDOA · « **Reply #79 on:** February 04, 2002, 05:39:25 PM »

I've bee trying like heck to stay out of this but I can't resist.

Here is an AAR of a real life F4U-4 vrs Yak encounter. I've have already posted this once before. Notice the load the F4U's are carrying during the encounter.

The following article is from "Naval Aviation News" from sometime
during the early 50's. The author is unknown at this time.

YAK vs. CORSAIR
It was all over in 10 minutes. Two heavily loaded F4U-4's proved
more than a match for four Russian made YAK's, a name made famous
in World War II.
Things started popping when an early morning reconnaissance patrol
from the escort carrier Bataan were abruptly introduced to the
much-touted Red jobs, near Choppeki Point off the west coast of
Korea.
Of the four Marine Corsairs launched in the group, two had been
sent to escort a helicopter ordered to pick up a Corsair pilot
from another flight who had bailed out because of engine trouble.
The two remaining Corsairs continued toward their designated
targets to the northeast. The flight climbed for altitude over
Hojang-do in open formation with the flight leader about 500 yards
at 7 o'clock from his wingman. It was just a routine combat
patrol until...........
The flight leader first spotted the enemy aircraft when the first
two Yaks, either YAK-3's or YAK-9's, opened fire, sending a bullet
through his Corsair aft of the cockpit. The Corsairs were at about
2,000 feet when taken under attack by the YAK's, which came
barreling in an altitude of 5,000 to the northwest.
Flying in a loose right echelon the four enemy fighters made a
right and then a left turn, at approximately 10 o'clock, toward
the Corsairs and made a run on the flight leader. Apparently, the
Reds had not yet spotted the second Corsair.
Scratch Three. The second F4U pulled in behind the attacking
YAK's and followed their No. 3 man, with their No. 4 plane at 7
o'clock from him. Following this the second Corsair broke away
from behind the No. 3 man and dove to the left and below the No. 4
man who was firing at him. He then made a climbing 360 degree
turn and opened fire an two of the enemy aircraft with unobserved
results. Tailing in at 4 o'clock on another enemy, the Marine
flier opened fire, hitting the Red's tail, fuselage and wing. His
hits caused the starboard wing of die YAK to break off and the
plane crashed and went up in a burst of flames.
Meanwhile, the Corsair flight leader, upon being hit did a "Split
S" to pick up speed and made a climbing turn to the left. Two
enemy aircraft made firing runs from astern, but overshot and
turned wide while he pulled in behind and returned fire on the two
YAK's with unobserved results. While the flight leader was in a
climbing left turn one enemy aircraft crossed in front of him from
right to left. At that instant a YAK was seen by the flight
leader to crash into the ground and burn. This was his wingman's
kill. Meanwhile, the YAK crossing the flight leader's nose was
taken under fire and sent spinning into the ground smoking. This
second enemy aircraft crashed and burned about one-half mile west
of the spot where the first YAK was burning.
The flight leader turned to the left and headed eastward when he
observed three aircraft flying ahead of him also heading east.
The wingman was pursuing one enemy aircraft, with the second enemy
aircraft following to the left and turning right on his tail. The
flight leader called his wingman and told him to pull up as the
YAK was on his tail.
The wingman turned hard to the left and dropped his Corsair under
and astern opening fire on the YAK as it overran him. His fire
started the enemy plane smoking out of both sides of the cockpit
from around the wing roots.
The flight leader continued tailing the enemy lead plane and his
opening fire started this aircraft smoking. Attempting to evade
the fire, the YAK pilot turned to the south, and then to the west
but the pursuing fire caused the enemy plane to puff smoke. The
Red did a "Split S" and headed west. Following through, the
Corsair continued to tail in on him firing. The enemy plane began
smoking from both wings and the fuselage while fragments of the
aircraft kept falling off. Papers were seen coming from the
cockpit. Following this the pilot jettisoned his hood and then
bailed out. A few seconds later the YAK plunged into the water.
The pilot's parachute opened and he descended into the water,
apparently unhurt.
The two Corsairs then joined up and climbed to 6,000 feet,
orbiting over the downed enemy planes location. The helicopter
previously ordered to pick up the ditched Corsair pilot was asked
also to pick up the enemy pilot. The section orbited this area
for about 10 minutes and then headed south toward Changyon.
The fourth enemy aircraft was last seen climbing east into the
sun, smoking from both wing roots.
A rough engine in the wingman's Corsair and smoke in the cockpit
of the flight leader's aircraft forced the flight to return to the
Bataan. The flight landed without mishap at 0820.
Poorly Executed. All the aerial action took place between 2,000
and 3,000 feet. This unexpected attack found both of the F4U's
carrying a belly tank and a 500-pound bomb, or a napalm tank,
which were not jettisoned until the combat was nearly over. Each
aircraft also was carrying a wing load of six HVAR rockets and two
100-pound bombs which were not jettisoned until the flight headed
for the ship.
The enemy aircraft were identified as other YAK-3 or YAK-9
fighters. These low-wing Soviet built fighters and their versions
are powered by in-line engines ranging from 1,085 to 1,580
horsepower. Maximum speed for the Yak prop fighter is 360 knots
at 15,000 feet. Armament consists of one 20 mm gun, hub-mounted
and two 12.7 mm guns in the nose.
The markings on the aircraft were white circles outlined in red
with a red star in the center. These markings were located on the
fuselage aft and below the cockpit, and on the underside of left
wing. The aircraft were painted in camouflage that ran from
silver to light green.
It was the opinion of the two Corsair pilots that the attack by
the enemy, with both numerical superiority and altitude advantage,
was very poorly executed. The Reds also had an opportunity to
make the attack out of the sun, but didn't. Instead they made it
90 degrees to the sun. Furthermore, the fact that all four enemy
aircraft made the initial attack on the two Corsairs cast doubt on
the enemy tactical wisdom.
The air discipline of the enemy pilots was good as they
effectively kept together, providing mutual support. The Reds
pressed home their attack with determination and did not attempt
to leave the area until they were smoking from hits. Their
marksmanship, however, was poor on deflection shooting.
The F4U-4, even when heavily loaded, apparently is more
maneuverable than the YAK-3 or YAK-9 at speeds between 140 and 160
knots.
Moreover, the YAK fighters flown by the Communist pilots were
considered inferior in speed and rate of climb to the F4U-4.
Maximum speed used by the YAK's was about 200 to 250 knots. Most
maneuvering after the first pass was below 200 knots. Since no
effective evasive action was taken by the YAK pilots it is
believed they lacked training or experience.

Staga · « **Reply #80 on:** February 04, 2002, 06:06:49 PM »

Were Yak's really that bad ?
Or is the answer in last sentence "Since no
effective evasive action was taken by the YAK pilots it is
believed they lacked training or experience."

pimpjoe · « **Reply #81 on:** February 04, 2002, 07:02:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Staga
Were Yak's really that bad ?

on the same note....were la7's really that good?

Vermillion · « **Reply #82 on:** February 04, 2002, 08:08:38 PM »

Sorry F4UDOA, but that story doesn't prove anything.

First off there seemed to be a huge disparity in pilot quality.

Secondly. Oh they were Yak's. Thats like telling a story about a Me109K4 killing a "Spitfire", without ever detailing which Spit varient it was. Was it a Yak-9D? Yak-3? Yak-9U? Yak-3P? Or even one of the legendary Yak-3's with a VK107? All are different planes with different capabilities and strengths.

Lets look at another similar example. Many feel aircraft experts feel that the Mig-15 was quite superior to the F-86, but the F-86 had the much better K/D ratio in Korea. Did that prove it was a better plane? Nope it proved that the American pilots were typically trained better and had more experience than the North Korean and Chinese pilots they encountered.

And yes Pimpjoe the La7 was that good.

F4UDOA · « **Reply #83 on:** February 04, 2002, 09:50:44 PM »

Verm relax,

I was just posting a real life encounter between the A/C.

My only point is that sometimes we get a little caught up in all of the equations and forget that these A/C did in fact fly against one another and we are the ones who are simulating them.

Widewing · « **Reply #84 on:** February 04, 2002, 10:12:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion
Sorry F4UDOA, but that story doesn't prove anything.

First off there seemed to be a huge disparity in pilot quality.

Secondly. Oh they were Yak's. Thats like telling a story about a Me109K4 killing a "Spitfire", without ever detailing which Spit varient it was. Was it a Yak-9D? Yak-3? Yak-9U? Yak-3P? Or even one of the legendary Yak-3's with a VK107? All are different planes with different capabilities and strengths.

Lets look at another similar example. Many feel aircraft experts feel that the Mig-15 was quite superior to the F-86, but the F-86 had the much better K/D ratio in Korea. Did that prove it was a better plane? Nope it proved that the American pilots were typically trained better and had more experience than the North Korean and Chinese pilots they encountered.

And yes Pimpjoe the La7 was that good.

Ah, very few MiG-15s were flown by Chinese or North Korean pilots. Mostly they were operating Yak-9P and La-9/11 types. Indeed, the overwhelming majority of MiG-15 pilots, through 1952, were Soviets. WWII veterans to be more precise. Visit this Link:
Soviets of MiG Alley

My regards,

Widewing

AKEagle+ · « **Reply #85 on:** February 06, 2002, 12:49:35 PM »

I guess Rebel the point I was trying to make in my stats post is this. How does the plane compare in the ‘Real” Main Arena. There is a wide margin of pilot quality in the MA. I have about a 1:1 K/D in the MA. Not very impressive. Yet I am ranked about 800/2800 (?) as a fighter pilot. My K/D would be better, if I wasn’t such a compulsive furballer

I get vulched a lot taking off, hehehe, and I dive into non-winnable situations just to see how many (if any) I can take with me. That means that most pilots/players in the MA have less than a 1:1 K/D. This is fairly realistic, as in real combat there are essentially two classes of pilots: Aces and Targets.

As we look at the numbers of planes flown, and the K/Ds in the MA, I think we could interpolate from these, that most planes are being flown way below their potential. And I do mean WAY below their potential. I doubt if the F4U-4 were unperked that it would be the ride of choice for the masses. Too easy to bleed off your E, and get caught low and slow. Yaks, LA7s, and Ponys would run you down quickly if they have alt, and Spits and NIKS would be in a feeding frenzy. I truly doubt if would be any more popular than the Dora, except that it would probably be the fighter of choice for carrier assaults.

I think the Pony, flown well, is the terror of the arena. Although you screw up and YAKs will eat you for lunch. Yet the Pony is not the most popular plane and has a 1:1 K/D. You fly that puppy well and with patience, and it will bring you many scalps.

I think that the F4U-4, while a monster in the hands of a great stick, would be a seal pup on the ice in the hands of the average MA pilot.

AKEagle+

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #86 on:** February 06, 2002, 01:06:37 PM »

Hogs really get a bad rap, they are great planes, I love em, but I wish I could fly them better. I would love a hand, as I 've been driving them for years, and I still know there are secrets yet undiscovred by me.

I take the Hog -C up routinely, and it's a magnet for planes which seem to come out of nowhere!

Here's an F2/G, never see it in here except for my dreams!
I also have a nice pic of a pony and an original Tuskegee Airman, I'll post it if interested.

Tac · « **Reply #87 on:** February 06, 2002, 01:12:54 PM »

Just think what would happen if the -4 was unperked.

Would the -1 , -D be used? I dont think so.

On the 190's the difference is so great and yet the planes dont fly *that* much different when u compare a -D with a -4. Sure, the d9 has a monster engine.. but what crappy guns. The -5 and -8 are a tad slower, but pack much better punch. And they dive just as good as the D9.

IMO, the 152 should be unperked, the D9 perked at 10 perks, the F4U-4 should be 10 perks. The 152 is roughly the equivalent below 30k of the -4 when compared to the -D (-D would be the 190a5/a8 equivalent).

Widewing · « **Reply #88 on:** February 06, 2002, 01:33:18 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by pimpjoe

on the same note....were la7's really that good?

In Korea, La-9/11 types, as well as Yak-9Ps were commonly operated by the North Korean and Chinese Air Forces. They were butchered by F-51D, F4U-4/5 and F-82 fighters. Likewise those foolish enough to venture out in the dark were frequently smacked down by Marine Corps F7F-3N Tigercats.

Once the MiGs started intercepting B-29 raids, they were shifted to night bombing. During the night missions, the Superforts were escorted by Navy and Marine F3D Skyknights. During the entire war, B-29 night missions escorted by the F3Ds never suffered a single casualty to communist fighters, be they prop driven or MiG-15s.

My regards,

Widewing

Red Tail 444 · « **Reply #89 on:** February 06, 2002, 02:13:51 PM »

Convergence Q...

Should I keep the default settings or should I adjust the conversion sights in the hog...I sadle up (as much as a hog can do!) but I'm missing...I have the trigger on the throttle, so it's a smooth stream...

any suggestions?