Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue)

[thrila]

Nice pic widewing,  really didn't realise how massive the jug was.  That crane in the background used to hoist pilots into their cockpits?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by thrila
Nice pic widewing,  really didn't realise how massive the jug was.  That crane in the background used to hoist pilots into their cockpits?

There's a funny story about the arrival in Australia of the 5th Air Force's first P-47D-5s. Landing at an RAAF field near Darwin, a P-47 taxis in and shuts down. RAAF ground crews meet it for refueling.

As the Jug's pilot climbs out and slides to the ground off the lowered flap, he observes one Australian staring at the massive fighter. Walking over to the pilot the Aussie says, "G'day Sir, glad to have you visit us."

"Glad to be here." replies the pilot.

With a hint of mischief in his voice, the Aussie asks, "By the way Sir, where's the rest of your crew?"

In the picture, armorers are setting gun zeros and convergence.
Note the extra-wide stance of the P-47N, having the landing gear displaced further out by the wing inserts at the root, where fuel tanks now reside.

My regards,

Widewing

[K West]

Rebel is right about the F4U-4.      Although I too think some perked planes are mis-valued. Not that any perk plane should be unperked.    

And thanks for the 47 info and story.
 
  Westy

[Red Tail 444]

I guess I'm a Hog Dweeb, once I got in the seat of one I find it hard to get into anything else, especially the -4 , although I do enjoy a number of smooth rides in the game. From an AH Newbie standpoint, I dont mind the 60 points it takes to roll one out. It just makes us all better pilots, and coming from the online combat Hell that was AW, I like the emphasis on learning to fly AND landing your points, and not the trash talking, F6-to-30k, alt-monkeying, cherry-picking, blow E-then-auger-fest / vulch-o-rama it turned into towards the end.

(wow...someone's bitter!)

Looking 4 ward to my -4 ride!

Gainsie

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by Widewing


I'm afraid that can't be. There was no way that the any of the old razorback T-Bolts could make to Berlin circa March/April 1944. Only after the D-25 showed up could the P-47 penetrate beyond Hanover. Even then, getting to Berlin and back would have pushed endurance to the limit.  

According to Bodie, referring to the P-47D-22 and -23:
"but even they were not capable of flying as far east as Berlin from the U.K. Only P-38s and P-51B/Ds demonstrated such capability in the Spring of 1944." Page 332, of his Thunderbolt book.

Now, if the P-47N had been in the ETO, that would be different as the big N had slightly better range than the P-51D of the P-38L.

My regards,

Widewing

I thought it was at Big week, and thereafter that t-bolt uniots had access to the big 150 gallon fuel tanks which would allow them to go the distance.

[AKEagle+]

Rebel:

Well, I learned a long time ago that when you are being outmaneuvered, split S, dive to the deck and run like a scalded dawg

You obviously have a better understanding of the culture of AH than I do.  And believe me the culture determines what is “realistic”, the rules etc etc.  Also, you have a better understanding of the planes of WWII.  I think it would be best to graciously bow out, and run like hell

However, this is a discussion, and not a debate, so give me this.  The F4U was a major contributor to the Allied war effort.  Mostly US, but also the Brits and perhaps some others?  The present system of perking the F4U has made it pretty scarce in the arena. My biggest gripe with the F4U D is the acceleration under 200 mph, (comes out of the starting gates like a turtle).  Once you are low and slow, you are just a target.  While that is true in any plane, it is especially true in the F4U D.  When I am flying a Spit, I just drool over low F4s!

Something needs to be done to get more F4Us in the arena, and the present way of perking 2 of them doesn’t seem to be answer.  There has to be some way of balancing an over abundance of F4Us and a low number of the puppies.

On the aside, I logged on last night as soon as we got back from Church.  Thought I’d get in a couple of quick sorties, and contribute to someone’s kill buffer

I looked at the map, and it looked like a small number of planes just outside our one of our bases, not a massive furball, just a few planes.  So I took off in a Hawg, as I figured that the fight would be low ( they usually are) and I would dive in with a bit speed and make a nuisance of myself.  As I approached the fight they had alt, but were still out of icon range. Not to worry someone would dive down to the deck and I proceeded in.  Icons come into range, and Oh Oh!  Two Ponys playing “Whack-a-Mole”.  And I get to be the Mole! LOL.   Well, I came to dance, and besides, I’d rather crash the puppy than fly it home!

So I start to dance with 2 Ponys, a pesky 234 Jet Bomber and another of my team.  He gets shot up, and the Ponys slaver and drool over me.  One dives on me, I maneuver out of the way, and get him on my 12 so I can watch him and recover some speed.  Oh Oh! Only two red dots on the dar (234 n Pony on my 12)???  Where is that other Pony?  He was 5K back I thought, checked 6, 6high 3 hi, 9hi, nope not there.  Hmmm, check dar… Wonder if he is gone or on my low 6? About then my question was answered as a stream of 50s fly past me, not sure if I’m hit (I didn’t have my headset on LOL), I roll, but the Pony isn’t that fast, he rolls and turns me to Swiss cheese, I didn’t need a headset to figure out that I had been hit bad, and I didn’t need to check Cntr D either! LOL!!.  The guy who gets me is named Rebel 352 (?)  I didn’t occur to me that it was thee Rebel of this thread yet

So I walk back to base with my privates in a paper bag, and go to the hanger to check out another kite (my crew chief was NOT impressed).  Well, considering this discussion thread, I thought, “lets see how the Dora does in the same situation.”  Well I truck back out to the Ponies, and we continue, Reb dives on me I duck , stall the Dora, and die quite quickly LOL!!.  About then I get a message on Chanl 1 now I hardly ever read, as it takes too much from my SA but I was walking back to the hangar so I had time.  WOW the Rebel of this discussion, I thought,  And a great Pony pilot to boot! I though, Spit or NIK????   Well, I fugured I’d last a little longer against a Pony in a NIK.  Besides I wanted to see how this guy flew that Pony so well.

Back to the dance floor, this time in a NIK.  The Ponys dive on me, and I dodge.  I am not really trying to shoot them down, after all what they wanted was for me to extend, sit slow and vertical on one Ponys six, as the other turned me into Sushi.  I didn’t want to HO them either, as this was great fun,  how long could I last???  We danced a bit, a F6F came in, I got the poor sot, and managed to barely avoid the enevitable Pony diving on me.  I thought I could get by with the extension and I did! LOL. We danced a bit more, and then they both flew off, I think to get a coffee and fuel.  Rebel was coming back to give me another lesson, but I had to go to sleep

I mean a loving wife and family, coupled with a steady job are the curse of every sim pilot

All I all a great although short, time in the arena

BTW I tried Dawn of Aces, not my cup of tea. No need to bash it, It just didn't resonate with me.

Salute Reb!

AKEagle+

[stantond]

Well,

Not to cloud this discussion with numbers and data, but has anyone looked at the performance of the F4U-4 compared to other planes in the arena?  Myself, being a pony pilot, compared the F4U-4 (both online and offline) to the 51D.   Here are some of the numbers I found.

50% fuel, 10k alt

51D                                                            

Starting at 200ias and 10k alt it took 16 sec to reach 400 ias with a final altitude of 5k (zero g's load).

Starting at 200ias in level flight it took 25 sec to reach 250 ias at 10k alt.

Starting at 250ias in level flight it took 42 sec to reach 300 ias at 10k alt.

50% Fuel, 10k alt

F4U-4

Starting at 200ias and 10k alt it took 16 sec to reach 400 ias with a final altitude of 5k (zero g's load).

Starting at 200ias in level flight it took 27 sec to reach 250ias at 10k alt.

Starting at 250ias in level flight it took 51 sec to reach 300ias in  at 10k alt.


Myself, I see no reason to fly the F4U-4.  The pony is the same or better for the type of fighting the plane is intended for, IMO.  The F4U-4 *is* a big improvement over the -1 and -1D both in climbing and acceleration.  However, don't get it too close to La7's and spit9's or you will loose 60 perk points.


Regards,

Ledz

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by stantond
Well,



Myself, I see no reason to fly the F4U-4.  The pony is the same or better for the type of fighting the plane is intended for, IMO.  

Regards,

Ledz

Ahh but its got a radial, and a R2800 at that. Those candypants types that fly a watercooled AC are inferior:)

[Rebel]

Well, I learned a long time ago that when you are being outmaneuvered, split S, dive to the deck and run like a scalded dawg

No need, amigo- it's simply a discussion between friends, as far as I'm concerned.  You've brought stuff to the table I didn't know about, and I think you've learned a few things as well.  

Thanks for a most positive and thought engaging discussion  

You obviously have a better understanding of the culture of AH than I do. And believe me the culture determines what is “realistic”, the rules etc etc. Also, you have a better understanding of the planes of WWII. I think it would be best to graciously bow out, and run like hell

It isnt' that I understand the culture of AH better, it's the same all over the place.  Your average pilot isn't looking to go out, make 5 kills, then come home, he's looking for the easy big boom.

But, every community has their different "features".  One thing I've noticed about AH over the years, is that chute shooting is simply THE most hated practice in the world.  In Warbirds country,  it ain't that big of a deal, but vulching used to be just as hated as chute shootin' here.  Different communities spawn different attitudes.  But one thing remains constant- the furballer will always outnumber the E-fighter.

As to the understanding of WW2 planes, thanks,  I've been studying them for a long time, and to be frank, I had to look up some of that info

No need to run like hell- I think all that happened is you were made aware of a few things that you didn't know before.  This happened to me today when I took my mother to the doctor.  I read an article in news week about why the middle eastern Arabs hate America and the Western world so much.  VERY enlightening.  

However, this is a discussion, and not a debate, so give me this. [/b]

Agreed- FIRE AWAY!

The F4U was a major contributor to the Allied war effort. Mostly US, but also the Brits and perhaps some others?

Absolutely.  A true shining star of the PTO- sporting an 11:1 KTD ratio, and the performance that the American and Australian/some British groups pilots needed to defeat the Empire's best aircraft.  

The present system of perking the F4U has made it pretty scarce in the arena

Correction- perking of the F4U-1C and the F4u-4 have made them pretty scarce.  

Generally, the formula goes that the harder the plane is to fly,  the less of them you'll see in the arena.  Believe it or not, back in the day in WB's, 109's were VERY hard to do well in.  Generally you'd see like maybe 1 or 2 in the furball, and you'd know to watch them with a careful eye.  

Like I said before- the F4U doesn't reward a yank-n-banker.  It rewards a patient fighting style, and a steady, steady hand.  

My biggest gripe with the F4U D is the acceleration under 200 mph, (comes out of the starting gates like a turtle). Once you are low and slow, you are just a target. While that is true in any plane, it is especially true in the F4U D. When I am flying a Spit, I just drool over low F4s!

Oh yeah,  absolutely!  The F4u-D's acceleration is nothing to crow about, that's for sure.  Try taking up a Jug into a low alt furball some time- you'll get much the same result!  (Do NOT ask me how I know this )

The F4u excels at high speed maneuvering, but with a gentle hand.  Slashing attacks from a position of advantage, and carefully planned reversals are all the Hawg driver needs to take home a buncha scalps.  

Something needs to be done to get more F4Us in the arena, and the present way of perking 2 of them doesn’t seem to be answer. There has to be some way of balancing an over abundance of F4Us and a low number of the puppies.

Well.....I dunno about unperking any of 'em......but maybe lowering the -4's perk to 30 would yield results.  But the thing also stands true- not that many people do well in the 1D hawg, so why try the others?

I'm actually VERY surprised that I don't see C Hogs at all.  Maybe that 8 points is a lil' too much......or maybe the guys who all flew 'em are stuck in their spits gettin vulched and don't have the perks.


Maybe a well advertised "Hawg training night" or something.....Any of the VMF groups care to comment?

On to the dogfight

The other guy I was flying with was a decent driver, but he had a knack for getting into a sticky wicket.  I just love it when the bad guys get fixated on one or two other people- makes my life a LOT easier!

He was 5K back I thought, checked 6, 6high 3 hi, 9hi, nope not there. Hmmm, check dar… Wonder if he is gone or on my low 6?

About here you had a Pony comin in at about 450 knots on your low six- I adjusted rudder, and let loose a burst.....

About then my question was answered as a stream of 50s fly past me, not sure if I’m hit (I didn’t have my headset on LOL), I roll, but the Pony isn’t that fast, he rolls and turns me to Swiss cheese, I didn’t need a headset to figure out that I had been hit bad, and I didn’t need to check Cntr D either! LOL!!. The guy who gets me is named Rebel 352 (?) I didn’t occur to me that it was thee Rebel of this thread yet

The Pony WAS going that fast  What I did was I used vertical seperation to eat up the extra speed, brought it back around on a PROPERLY set up rear shot and got your tail section

So I walk back to base with my privates in a paper bag

LOL! That's rich!  I'm saving that one for my "Fave Quotes"!

and we continue, Reb dives on me I duck , stall the Dora, and die quite quickly LOL!!.

Oh my god dude, you have NO idea what I went through.  Again, I lag rolled, and brought it around, only this time to a Dora standing on her tail, barely moving.  Now I'm going 300 knots, and I have to do something quick as the range is closin in on 300 already- I aimed square for the cockpit and let her rip- thank god you exploded.  I woulda collided with you.

Although, it was pretty cool, feelin like Wedge Antilles savin Luke (my other P51 friend) from that nasty TIE, and blastin straight through the guts of im

Back to the dance floor, this time in a NIK.....

After you blew up and were starting your engine, I decided I'd had enough (fuel was starting to be a concern, so I whipped a 180, and headed home).  I dove for the deck, made max speed, and got up to pour myself a cup of coffee.  This is where ya got your kills, and I was rearming.

As I'm comin back, you leave.....and well, it just wasn't as much fun without ya bro

I mean a loving wife and family, coupled with a steady job are the curse of every sim pilot

Argh!

BTW I tried Dawn of Aces, not my cup of tea. No need to bash it, It just didn't resonate with me

'ey, 'es not for everybody, no?  'es okay amigo

Salute Reb!

Right back at ya, bro

[stantond]

Since we are on the topic of F4U's,

Anyone else notice the tendency of the -1C and -4 to break landing gear?  It appears that if you apply the brakes too soon (quickly?) you break the left strut.  I have not had this problem in any plane except the F4U-1C and F4U-1D.  

Btw, it doesn't stop you from landing safely, you just can't rearm.


Ledz

[Karnak]

Rebel,

You were wondering about the Fw190D-9 production run.  674 Fw190D-9s were built.  This compares nicely with the Tempest MkV Series II (the type we have in AH) that entered RAF service at roughly the same time, of which 700 were built.

About the Corsair, I have found the F4U-1D to be a very good fighter when flown as an energy fighter.  I find that it is easier than the Fw190D-9 to get kills in.  I have had vastly less success with the F4U-4.  The icon over it makes it frusterating.  That is why I don't fly many perk planes.  They just aren't fun for me because of the "Gang bang the perk plane" action that always occurs.  The price is not the issue.

The F4U-1C doesn't have this problem, but I'm not a big F4U fan and I like the F4U-1C least of all 4 F4Us in AH.

In Tour 24:

The C.205 has 5151 kills and has been killed 5857 times.
The F4U-1C has 5139 kills and has been killed 2436 times.

I see the 205 fairly often and I don't think that the 205 is anymore than twice as common as the F4U-1C.  I think we see them more often than we tink and just assume that they are F4U-1Ds.  You have to get close to see the difference and if it is merely an F4U icon that we never personally fight in a big melee we can't tell what kind it is.

[Rebel]

Heya Karnak!

You were wondering about the Fw190D-9 production run. 674 Fw190D-9s were built. This compares nicely with the Tempest MkV Series II (the type we have in AH) that entered RAF service at roughly the same time, of which 700 were built.

Thanks- I always wondered how many were actually built.

Now for the big question- how many of them saw combat?  (both types, if you have the numbers)

The production numbers can be a bit misleading, but I'm willin to put money down that a higher percentage of Doras saw combat then the Tempests (the war was already going so well, no need to throw the latest-greatest fighter in your stable out into combat- just a few for combat trials would make more sense)

About the Corsair, I have found the F4U-1D to be a very good fighter when flown as an energy fighter

Oh, absolutely!  I LOVE the design of the Hawg.  They traded a little bit of speed for some maneuverability, and made a wicked combination.  

I find that it is easier than the Fw190D-9 to get kills in

Now is this because you too are a poor shot with 20mm like me, or do you find the Dora's peak performance envelope more difficult to stick to and get kills?  

I have had vastly less success with the F4U-4. The icon over it makes it frusterating. That is why I don't fly many perk planes. They just aren't fun for me because of the "Gang bang the perk plane" action that always occurs. The price is not the issue.

So there IS an "F4u4" icon over the -4 hawg?  That changes things a bit.  I was under the impression that it just said "F4u" under it.  

If this is the case, an argument could be raised for removing that icon, and keeping the standard "F4u" over it.  In fact, I think that would make things a LOT more interesting.  

Regarding other perk planes- well, it wouldn't really apply to them, as they all have their distinctive silhouettes.  A 262 looks very very distinctive, as do the Ta152H, and the Arado.  But an F4U?  I'd have a hard time telling the three apart in actual combat, so I would just as soon dump that icon.  

The F4U-1C doesn't have this problem, but I'm not a big F4U fan and I like the F4U-1C least of all 4 F4Us in AH

Totally agree here.  

I see the 205 fairly often and I don't think that the 205 is anymore than twice as common as the F4U-1C. I think we see them more often than we tink and just assume that they are F4U-1Ds. You have to get close to see the difference and if it is merely an F4U icon that we never personally fight in a big melee we can't tell what kind it is.

I think this point is a very good one, and have to wholeheartedly agree here.  I think that the F4u4's icon is removing half the joy of taking the fighter out of the hanger.  I could see many frustrated hawg drivers out there just itchin' for a chance to really surprise somebody, hehehe

Now that I think about it, I bet most Hogs I see would be F4u1C's.  I mean, take into effect that the average joe doesn't know how to E-fight, and DOES know that 4 20mm cannons (escpecially hispanos) is a LOT of firepower....

Whadda you think?  Kinda hard to tell.....I wish it was the same with the F4u-4.

[Nashwan]

Now for the big question- how many of them saw combat? (both types, if you have the numbers)

The production numbers can be a bit misleading, but I'm willin to put money down that a higher percentage of Doras saw combat then the Tempests (the war was already going so well, no need to throw the latest-greatest fighter in your stable out into combat- just a few for combat trials would make more sense)

The Tempest started production well before the Dora, in the summer of 43, and the first prototype flew in summer 42, so there had been plenty of time for flight trials before they entered service in spring 44.
I don't know how many actually saw combat, but the RAF had a desire to convert as many Typhoon squadrons to Tempests as possible.
Tempests were very active in RAF service, and losses to flak were high.
Given the fuel situation in the Luftwaffe, I'd be willing to bet Tempests accumulated more hours on active duty during the war than Doras did.

[Vermillion]

Yes, as far as I know, the -1C is the only perk plane without a "perk icon tag".  So we don't notice it as much and people don't all try to gangbang it like they do -4's, Ta152s, Tempests, and 262's

Ledz, nice work on the accel tests.  Mandoble and I were discussing this the other night, and I didn't have the time to do controlled tests with him.

Your also right about the gear problem on the whole Corsair series.  Actually the problem is that they have a tendency to ground loop as you brake, which causes lateral stress on the gear and it breaks.  What you need too do is keep back pressure on the joystick until you have almost stopped the aircraft on the runway.  This will stop the ground looping.

[Raubvogel]

You know, I had never flown a F4U-4 so I decided to try it out last night to see what all the fuss is about. I gotta say the same thing...Why is this thing perked at 60 points? Should be 10 points at the most, and maybe even less. I'm pretty sure a La7 outperforms it at most MA alts.