Author Topic: Explain Why the F4U-4 is a Perk Plane Again?? (HighValue) (Read 2177 times)

Vermillion · « **on:** January 28, 2002, 06:44:10 PM »

Could someone please explain to me again why the F4U-4 is a perk plane? Or at the least a very high value perk plane in the arena?

This is an honest question, and not a crusade, so put the flame throwers away, and lets disucss this at least semi-rationally

After reading the performance thread, I really wonder.

Ok, typically planes are perked on the either the basis of production numbers, or performance, or date of delivery/combat.

So lets look at the F4U-4

Production numbers: 2,050

Now how many of these were before the end of WWII, I honestly don't know. Any information here is welcome. But its easy to see that this is a fairly sizeable production, if we look at other planes in AH thats not perked. Thats more than the Fw190D9, Me109K4 (I don't have exact numbers on the G10 that are reliable), N1K2, and the very low perk cost F4U-1C (I forget the numbers on the La7).

Performance:

Now I'm not going to roadkill anyone. The -4 is a very capable aircraft in the arena. But does it "over achieve" in any categories such that it dominates the arena, or has a combination of "great" abilities such that it would become too popular and again dominate by popularity (similar to the old -1C) ?

I guess for me, the prime attributes for an aircraft in the main arena are Top Speed, Deck Speed, Rate of Climb (also Acceleration), FirePower/Ammo, and Handling. I don't include things like sustained turn rate, since they are genearlly considered a moot point for late war 'high performance' planes.

Top Speed -- The dash 4 Corsair would be one of the fastest, but not "the" fastest non-perk plane. Its top speed of approx 445mph (according to AHT and Pyro, 452mph in F4UDOA's document) would make is slightly slower than the Me109G10, and very close to the P-51B, P-51D, and the Fw190D9. This is its best category.

Deck Speed -- Again, its very fast at 376mph, but there are a couple of faster non-perked planes. The La7 and the Fw190D9 are as fast or faster. While the Typhoon, the P-51D, the P-51B, the Yak-9U and several others are very very close.

Rate of climb (also Accel) -- Once more the dash 4 is respectable, but there are many better. At Sea Level its ROC is 3400 fpm at military power, and 3900 fpm at WEP. Of the similar aircraft we've been using so far... the La7, Fw190D9, and the Me109G10 are much much better. The Yak-9U is similar, while the P51D/B, Typhoon, and a couple of others are only slightly behind.

Firepower/Ammo -- I think we can all agree that the standard US 6 x .50's with a large ammo load, ranks average in this category. Some benefits, some drawbacks, generally falls in the middle. Its not a "laser armed" Tiffie, or a "spitwad armed" Yak-9U.

Handling -- Again, pretty good, but not the "best" in any category but slightly above average. Its pretty close to the Fw190D9, P-51D, Yak-9U, and the La7, in most categories. To be honest, the only aircraft thats not "in the middle of the pack" in this category (IMO) is the 109G10, which has poor handling overall.

Date of Delivery/Combat:
The F4U-4 Corsair was first accepted by the Navy in Sept. 1944, first delivery's to units in Dec. 1944, and its first combat was in April 1945 during the Okinawa campaign. Ok, no arguement that it arrived late in the war. But obviously the N1K2 and -1C were later, and the La7, the 109G10, and the190D9 served just a few months more. But admittedly this is one of the greatest reasons to perk the F4U-4.

OVERALLl: Ok, I've convinced myself, the F4U-4 while not the best in any category, is pretty high in all of them. This might fall into the "combination of abilities" that would make it very popluar. But its true that the Dora, La7, and P-51D also fall into the same "grey area".

IMO (let the flamethrowers be fueled and lit !!): The F4U-4 is not worth the current 60 perk points. Not even close. At the worst, it should be a low cost perk in the 10-15 point range.

Otherwise its just not worth it and I (and the rest of the populace) will just fly the Dora, P-51D, or the La7, for free like everyone else.

Ok I was bored tonight, can you tell?

PS: Yah gotta like it because its BLUUUUEEEE !!!

Pongo · « **Reply #1 on:** January 28, 2002, 07:11:43 PM »

Carrier capable, excellent ord, excelent high speed handling especially in roll, excellent survivablility. and it is blue...
None reasons for the cost but does seperate it from some of the planes you mentioned.

leitwolf · « **Reply #2 on:** January 28, 2002, 07:18:53 PM »

Agreed. 60 Perks is way too much for a plane that is hardly better than most latewar non-perks. (I would take a La7 or Dora against a -4 anyday. If i get myself into trouble i'll simply dive away. At low alts those two have no problems handling a -4. imho of course

)
It can operate off cvs and is a much better attack plane than these two. But who would take a F4U-4 sporting its ridicilous 'kill me' label (icon) for such a dirty work? It`s superior above 20k. Nice feature. But this has hardly any impact on the arena. And I doubt it's so much better than a B-Pony at alt. The bottom line is:
It might be worth flying if it either had a generic 'F4U' label or a lower price. I haven't seen a -4 in months so i guess we're not alone

LeitWolf

214thCavalier · « **Reply #3 on:** January 28, 2002, 08:23:49 PM »

Well i believe its faster than the P51 at all alts and climbs much better than the P51 at Hi altitudes as well.
Just for fun as a break from the F6F-5 when i feel everybody is just running away from me

I will bring out the F4U-4 to get some high speed action in, now whilst getting over the shock of using a plane that is actually FAST i felt unbeatable in it. Get in real trouble just run away

For example I am 51 - 3 in it, 2 i believe were discos (17 this tour and counting) the other my stupidity for taking a snap HO with a P51 after running up 14 kills, luckily he died first so it was not recorded as a kill to the p51

My Stats show 10 - 0 v the P51 in the F4U-4 this tour and most of them at Hi alt where the P51 jocks expect to rule.
My point is it is an extremely good aircraft flown correctly and definitely worth some serious perkies but 60 ? who knows.

Raubvogel · « **Reply #4 on:** January 28, 2002, 08:41:37 PM »

Never flown it, but never seen very many either-which is a shame. Cost definitely needs to be lower.

fdiron · « **Reply #5 on:** January 28, 2002, 08:46:19 PM »

F4u-4 is mediocre plane below 10k. It cant turn well, it will spin if you stall it, and has a very bad 6 view. I am willing to bet its acceleration is bad also. It should not be perked.

What do you call an F4u-4 at 5k with an La7 on its tail?

Dead.

pimpjoe · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2002, 09:04:38 PM »

its all up to the pilot.

i found the -4 to be an outstanding plane. maybe the perk cost is a little high. but it deffinitely needs to be perked.

Quote

What do you call an F4u-4 at 5k with an La7 on its tail?

Dead.

not so...i ran into 3 la7's in a -4 the other day. out flew all 3 of em and killed em. the plane is way more capable than most people make it out to be. just have to fly it a few times and get the feel for it. plus the damn thing dives like a brick.

Tac · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2002, 09:15:00 PM »

Ive tried the -4 , its an amazing plane.

Its a P-51 with the accel of a tiffie and all the good qualities of the hogs. Its dive is impressive!

I agree that its high priced, it should be around 12 perks at best.

Widewing · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2002, 11:59:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Tac
Ive tried the -4 , its an amazing plane.

Its a P-51 with the accel of a tiffie and all the good qualities of the hogs. Its dive is impressive!

I agree that its high priced, it should be around 12 perks at best.

A couple of years ago, I had a nice long conversation with Brig. Gen. Ralph Jerome. General Jerome began his military aviation career with the RCAF in 1941, not willing to wait for the U.S. to get into the war. He flew Hurricanes and Spitfires before transferring to the USAAF in late 1942. He then accumulated time in the P-47 and P-51 before rotating back to the States. I believe that he finished the war with three aerial kills and five more destroyed on the ground.

After the war, in early 1950 (before the Korean War began), Jerome was still flying Air Guard P-51s. One afternoon, he ran across a Marine F4U-4 while out on a maintenance check flight. Both pilots took the opportunity to get in a little ACM practice and they went at each other on the merge, passing canopy to canopy. Jerome pulled around in a punishing turn, only to find the Corsair already had gained a slight advantage. Around they went, several times, with the Vought slowly gaining. Jerome split-S'd for the deck, but the Marine had no trouble keeping up. Now at tree top height, they rat-raced between hills, with Jerome's Mustang not able to gain any ground. So, he decided to take the contest vertical. That, he stated, "was a mistake." Within seconds the Corsair had closed up to within gun range. Rolling out at the top of a half loop, Jerome pops his maneuvering flaps and turns as hard as he can. Yet, the F4U is still there! Hanging on the edge of a stall, Jerome is amazed to watch the much larger and heavier Vought turn even tighter. Executing a hard reverse, he stares in disbelief as the Corsair snaps over in perfect firing position. "Bang, you're dead" come through his headset. Joining up, Jerome congratulates the young Marine pilot, commenting on the Corsair's remarkable performance.

Recalling the story, the General commented that he was disappointed that he was not flying his normal fighter, a P-51H. Jerome believes that the P-51H would have given him the edge in terms of pure performance.

Oh yeah, the name of the Marine pilot? Capt. John Glenn.

My regards,

Widewing

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #9 on:** January 29, 2002, 12:08:22 AM »

Vermillion arent you one of the folks who would often link to website that said the F4U4 was the BEST fighter of the war?

What, did your ubernesss fantasies just not come true? How is this different than the stupid Ta152 whines?

Just shut up with the whining, OK?

Man I hate these whiners that bash HTC stuff.....

SageFIN · « **Reply #10 on:** January 29, 2002, 04:51:10 AM »

Hehehehe. What goes around comes around. Especially whines

Nevertheless, F4U-4 is overpriced. As is the Ta-152 and even the Tempest.

bolillo_loco · « **Reply #11 on:** January 29, 2002, 07:45:03 AM »

WIDEWING, nice story thanks, but there was only one problem with it, it was a marine pilot vs a brand x pilot, unfair in my book regardless of what plane he flew, thanks.

November 10th 1775 my marine corps came alive.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #12 on:** January 29, 2002, 07:58:54 AM »

Verm, you are forgetting what, IMO, is the most important factor of all: acceleration (horizontal, climbing and diving).

Some days ago, StSanta and me did some acceleration tests at sea level with very fast planes (190D9, La7 and 109G10).
The result was that 109G10 seemed literally stopped in the air compared to La7, and 190D9 seemed stopped compared to G10.

The test was done starting at a low speed (about 250) mph, 75% fuel and going full MAN/WEP at the same time, not diving, just a race at level.

It should be interesting to test the F4U-4 in this aspect.

Vermillion · « **Reply #13 on:** January 29, 2002, 08:17:03 AM »

Cavalier and PimpJoe, I would bet that if you flew the P-51 the same "I gotta save my 60 perks" style, you would do just as well in it. Knowing a plane is worth something makes us all much more cautious and fly a more conservative style.

Grunherz, no thats not me.

Mandoble, I didn't forget Acceleration. I mentioned it in the Climb category. Acceleration & Rate of Climb are directly and linearly related. Like I said earlier the La7, the Fw190D9, and the 109G10 are all MUCH better, while many others are nearly the same.

And I agree with you all that the Ta152 is overpriced as well. In fact, I wouldn't mind the Ta152 in the arena unperked. I think its perked purely for its rarity.

bigUC · « **Reply #14 on:** January 29, 2002, 08:22:10 AM »

what Mandoble said. Tried to fight it at alt with G10, and it literally ate me up. Accelleration seems as good or better than G10, handling at speed obviously way better, climb is excellent (comparable to G10) and armament capable and with excellent range (remember, .50s kills at 1K).

The ones i have met have all done high-g turns at speed, gotten on my six, caught up with me in a blink and killed me at 800 or more yards. There's no escape in diving, climbing or turning.

It's a nasty, mourderous 60 perks plane for sure.