P47 vrs SpitIX

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Tac
I disagree with that widewing. It may have been true in real life, but the AH zero can still be flown at speeds beyond 300mph... using the trim tabs.

Ive had zeros follow my P-38 on a 420mph dive and the zero aiming and following my turn (while diving at 400mph). Trimming the aleirons and kicking rudder on the zeke will make it turn, albeit like an 80 mph unflapped 38, but it will turn. And if it can turn, it can aim.

Sure, it'll turn, but like a three-legged turtle. A reasonably fast rolling fighter can break way with ease. However, the Zero must be fairly close. To do this at 1.5k or greater is useless as the geometry still favors the Zeke. At .7 or .8, the Zeke won't be able to keep a guns solution.

Here's another way to shake a Zeke. You did it and don't even know that you did. I spotted a P-38 chasing a Spitfire in a shallow dive below me. I was flying a Zeke. I split-s and head down, about 30 degrees off the P-38's 6. I set up a nice lead pursuit that will give me a great shot once the range comes down. As the range drops to 1.2k, The P-38 smokes the Spit and eases up his nose above the horizon. Meanwhile, I'm haulin' freight, about 410 mph TAS. The Zeke is groaning like hell, but I want the shot before the P-38 spots me. When the P-38's nose comes up, I have to ease in some back pressure to keep the correct deflection. Just then, BANG... The wings come off. I lawn darted just behind the Lightning. Then, in the message buffer I see, "Tac shot you down". You got the proxy credit, and I'll wager you had no idea why.

My best,

Widewing

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Lephturn


Yes, but only if they both stay at 300 Mph.  My point is that if for example a Spit IX and a Jug are both at 300 MPH, they can both turn about the same... G limit as you say.  The real issue is that during that turn, the Jug will slow down much more quickly and approach it's corner speed more quickly than the Spit IX will pulling the same G load.

I agree. With the P-47, you will have trade altitude for speed if you want to keep at or above corner. Which, obviously, only exacerbates your problem.

A few weeks ago, I took a P-47D-30 up to 32k, just to see how it performed relative to actual flight test data. Being up there for quite a while, I had wandered deep into Injun territory. I spot a dot up at my height, which eventually becomes a red-tagged Bf 109. I suppose this guy thought he had a B-17, so he came to have a look. Whether or not he was surprised to find a Jug, I can't say. However, he was surprised to have that Jug easily work its way onto his tail, despite his best efforts. Finally, grasping his tenuous situation, he split-s'd and ran for the deck. Not being inclined to chase him that deep into enemy territory, I simply headed for the barn. However, I now had confidence that the Jug could handle just about anything it might encounter up in the thin air.

Too bad so little combat takes place at these altitudes. Designed as a high altitude fighter, the Jug is without peer in its element.

My regards,

Widewing

[Lephturn]

Hehe, yep the Jug can really rock upstairs.  That's why even though it's not very popular in the arena, every time there is a scenario the Jug suddenly becomes the hot ride.  Lots of these planes are great for furballing down low, but if you want to fight up at historical altitudes and still make it home, nothing beats the Jug IMO.

[Yams]

Originally posted by mrsid2
I wouldn't be so sure about the excellence of flying of Yams. From what I saw from the film, he could have killed drex almost at any given moment if he just chopped his throttle and saddled in.

Instead he flew the spit b&z and never scored proper hits in addition of flying straight in front of drex's guns too.

Killed Drex at any given moment?  Right, please send me your film of you doing this and then say I suck.

[Yams]

Originally posted by mrsid2


Instead he flew the spit b&z and never scored proper hits in addition of flying straight in front of drex's guns too.

Figured I had him on the deck in the most vulnerable spot so instead of going vertical as I had done the entire fight I flat turned and wound up on the business end of Drex's 8 50s.  The way I see it, that was the only mistake I made during the flight.

[mrsid2]

Yams unfortunately I haven't had the chance of meeting drex as an opponent, much less with me in spit ix and him low & slow in a P47-d25.

My opinnion however was and is, that he was in such a low E state at that time and you were in such an advantageous position that you would have been able to kill him if you controlled your speed.

I can't see any reason why a spit pilot should approach a low P47 in a b&z attitude.. The spit outturns and outaccelerates the D25 down low. With an aggressive attitude the spit either kills the P47 or he escapes using his dive acceleration. In any case it's a better option than to fight the fight at speeds where the P47 has a chance of using its strong sides. With each time you zoomed him and pulled to vertical you were actually cutting him slack and giving him a chance to pull separation and speed to his jug.

Probably that was because you knew he was drex, the hot stick, and approached the fight cautiously.

I've flown p47 quite much lately and if I get a spit on my tail, my first priority is to get speed. If the spit denies that chance by saddling up my 6 and I can't make him overshoot, I'm pretty much out of options at that point. The spit accelerates very well in dives and it can do serious damage from D800 and up with the hispanos. It's a very tough job to try to outdive one in a jug if he only gets the chance of a shot.

I'd love to have a chance of replaying that situation with Drex in DA or TA, if he manages to kill me too from that position, I'll send you my public apologies Yams.

[Yams]

mrsid2,

Did I know it was Drex?  Yes.

Did it play a part in my strategy? You bet your ass.

Would I play it differently next time?  Nope.  

Your expoundings about the techincal differences, deficiencies, and advantages about both planes are all true.   I don;t dispute any of that.  I was trying to cut inside him but couldn't.  He flew magnificently.  I stopped trying to beat the pilot and started trying to beat the plane.  I flew my plane to its advantages and to his disadvantages.  We ended up on the deck.  Now, I whole heartedly agree with you that 47 v. Spit on the deck is a no brainer.  It's Spit all day long.  I figured I had him on the ropes and did that dumb bellybutton flat turn.   Hence, dead Spit.  

Your opinions are all valid.   However, they don't invalidate mine.  I flew that fight with Drex that way because he is a far better pilot than I.  I knew that he needed just one shot.  Going vertical kept me out of his guns.  Most could probably do better Im sure.  Im no hot stick.  I just enjoy this game and welcome any constructive criticism.

Good luck on your fight with him should you ever meet him.  No apologizes necessary, win or loose.  '-)

[Nath[BDP]]

After looking at the film myself, Yams, here are a few helpful hints:

The main problem I noticed was at the pass when you hit the P47s fuel, and you went back up, why didn't you just stay and finish him off? You then proceded to come back around and give him a shot when you were flatturning, you need to learn how to notice when someone has a shot on you like this and negate it. In the specific case I would have immeled around and roped him again.

Drex is an average pilot who learned most of his stuff from watching me fly the more challenging A8 in the same disadvantage situations.

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by Widewing
One point. In real aircraft, flying at speeds above 300 mph, the determining factor in who out-turns who is only based upon the individual pilot's ability to withstand G, period.

You are forgetting a key factor here: elevator authority. And the spits shine in this area too.

You may try the following experiment in DA with another player. Pick up a P47D and climb to 10k to wing with a Spit. Then both do a smooth dive to reach 450 mph, u after the spit, at less than 300 yards. At 450 mph, both planes trimming nose up and pulling the joy as much as possible. Tell me if u are able to follow the spit.

[Drex]

Drex is an average pilot who learned most of his stuff from watching me fly the more challenging A8 in the same disadvantage situations.

Don't forget about teaching me how to survive 6 goons BnZing my Jug.  That was much appreciated.

Drex

[aknimitz]

Hey Drex,

I've been tryin' to get a hold of you but havent seen you any and you dont ever answer your phone - bastige.  Probably out practicing your natural golf

Anyway, check out this URL, its something I've thrown together per our discussion and I'm lookin' for feedback.  Check out the Basic Combat Maneuv section and click on Split-S.  Tell me what you think about the quality, etc.  AKIron did that and we are working on making it a little more clear and crisp.

Virtual ACM Training Acadamy

Nim

[Drex]

Just read the News section that Pyro updated.  The new Film/edit system is going to make training much more effective.  Wonder if old films will be compatable.

Drex

BTW  the definition page is fugged up.  You might want to look at it again.

[humble]

Originally posted by Yams


Killed Drex at any given moment?  Right, please send me your film of you doing this and then say I suck.

Sometimes knowing who's yanking the stick in the other bird is a major issue....and personally I'd double the "pilot rating" for the jug vs the planes ability. A jug is so dependant on pilot skill compared to everything else in the arena. Unless you've run into drex or one of the other true jug aces (sancho and frenchy come to mind) you just can't truely understand how it'll warp the thought process. I certainly understand the logic yams used....he was fighting the other pilot...not the plane. I think realizing where the pilots ability and the actual limitations of the plane intersect is the toughest part about this "game".

[Drex]

MrSid when would you like to set this up?

Drex

[mrsid2]

I think we have a slight problem with the timezones, I live at GMT+2 and I've seen you online only a few times (we both fly rook..)

What time are you usually online? I'll try to join during that time and we can go to DA or TA..