Author Topic: I was thinking of the future BoB setup and... (Read 1853 times)

Karnak · « **on:** February 05, 2002, 02:08:37 AM »

I was thinking of the future BoB setup and I realized that the Spitfire Mk Ia should be perked. I think that 1 or 2 perk points would be about right.

The reasoning behind this is to press the RAF players into the historically more numerous Hurricane Mk Is. I believe that 1 or 2 perk points might get something resembling the 2 to 1 Hurri to Spit ratio.

The most popular German aircraft is sure to be the Bf109E-4 which is their best fighter, but historically it was also their most common. Therefore there is no need, reason or desire to perk the Bf109E-4 in order to press the Luftwaffe players into the Bf110C-4s. The Bf110C-4s should be adequately represented by the Luftwaffe players who voluntarily fly it.

What dou you guys, most importantly the CT Staff, think of the idea?

eddiek · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2002, 02:45:03 AM »

Kinda agree, and disagree too, Karnak.

Setting it up that way leaves no incentive to fly the 110, which turned out to need fighter escort itself.
Leave the Hurricane and 110 unperked so people WILL fly them til they get perks built up.
Perk the 109F4 at 1 or 2, same as the Spit. The F4 is gonna hold a good speed advantage if they are modeled close to anything I ever read about the BoB. No need to stack the deck in favor of the LW or the RAF. If you perk one, perk it's historical adversary too.
Just my opinion tho........

Pepe · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2002, 03:00:18 AM »

I mostly agree with you, Karnak

Although I can see eddiek's concern about lack of Me110 usage, I think It's the only jabo Axis have. I think It will be more survivable than Ju88, definitely more than He-111 (if we ever have it

), so I think it will be used in this role.

If Spit Ia is used, 109F should be perked. Not Emil, IMO.

Cheers,

Pepe

eddiek · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2002, 07:59:19 AM »

Oops, Karnak, my bad....

I misread your post, forgot we are getting the 109E-4. Still, perking one without perking the other..............

Seeker · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2002, 10:35:26 AM »

"I was thinking of the future BoB setup and I realized that the Spitfire Mk Ia should be perked. I think that 1 or 2 perk points would be about right. "

Which would guarentee I wouldn't set foot in there.

What is it with you guys and Spits?

Why are you so obsessed with what *other* people are flying?

Spit V's perked at the same rate as G-10's? And now even the Spit 1a to be perked?

The LW get to choose what plane they fly, but the RAF have to be forced to fly what *you* think they should?

You're pathetic, wearysome and boring.

Nifty · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2002, 10:51:10 AM »

Seeker, this is the CT, not the MA. planes are perked here not just based on their performance, but also based on their historical usage values. In the BoB, Hurricanes were more common than Spitfires, and did more than Spits supposedly. The Spitfire just got all the glory. (this is general opinion if I'm not mistaken)

Now don't you start bringing out the Luftwhiner label for me. In a BoB setup, I'm flying RAF unless the numbers are just so skewed that I have to fly Axis. I love Spitfires, and dang it, I want that Mk 1A more than any other European theater plane we don't have (ok, maybe a the LF version of the Spit V with the C wing so I can choose which armament I want between 8 brownings, 4 brownings/ 2 hispanos, or 4 hispanos!). However, I realize the importance of the Hurri Ia in the BoB and would not object to a 1-2 point perk on the Spitfire 1a in this setup.

The Spit I, Spit V and Spit IX have no business being perked in the Main Arena. This, however, is not the MA, this is the CT and more specifically a setup for the Battle of Britain. The Hurricane was the most used plane in that conflict, not the Spitfire. You leave the Spit I unperked and you'll see a 90% ratio of Spits in the setup once it goes live. Ya don't believe me, just look at the current CT and MA. Can't go anywhere without seeing Spitfires.

If anything a compromise. Spits perked for the first half of the BoB "tour" then unperked for the second half.

eddiek · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2002, 11:34:44 AM »

Okay, perk the Spit, make the Hurricane the main fighter you see for a while.
How is it gonna fare unless the LW has to put Ju-88's up? Against the 109, it is gonna be toast. That was proven in RL. The Hurricanes were used against the bombers, the Spitfires were tasked with engaging the 109/110 escorts.
No LW fliers are going to like being told they have to fly bombers because they were so prominent in the BoB, but to make it fair, that's what it is gonna take if you want to recreate a BoB atmosphere.
Dig out your history books and see what the ratio of 109/110's to bombers was for a typical raid, then make sure you use the same ratio in the BoB setup. Sounds extreme, right?
I am not trying to be disrespectful to anyone, I can see the merits of Karnak's proposal. I just try to look at the overall picture, and when you lean toward the historical mix on one side and not the other, you kinda give the limited side a screwing over.
I hope the BoB is set up with daily objectives, much like the others had.
Just my thoughts...........

Udie at Work · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2002, 11:45:57 AM »

I agree Karnak, only I'd perk them for more. I'd put the spit at about 10 points and the 109 at 7 or 8 points. It's too easy to go and get 2 perkies, heck I got 10 in the CT in about 30 min the other night.

Ofcouse we need the planes to perk em

Sabre · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2002, 12:07:31 PM »

I can certainly see both sides of the issue here. I take exception to the comment that the Hurricane would be "toast against the 109." As I recall, Hurricanes accounted for their fair share of Emils during the BoB. While I have read accounts that indicate the preferred tasking was for Spits to engage the 109's while the Hurricanes took on the bombers, Fighter Command rarely had the luxury of such fine control over the air battle. They scrambled what they had, when they had too. Radar was not adept at telling fighters apart from bombers (and still isn't for that matter) in any event. While the Emil does have a marginal edge on the Hurricane, it is nonetheless it's contemporary. Hurricanes acquited themselves well despite the performce difference.

Regarding perks, I could see the possiblity of perking the Spit by 1 point, as a mean of preserving the historical flavor of the set up. As for how to induce the German side to put up Ju88's (oh, if only we had a few more early war rides), the victory conditions can be set up to pretty much guarantee that the LW won't win without them.

At one point, you'd only need one ride in a Hurri to earn a Spit. Take care of that Spit, and you could conceivably never need another Hurri ride the rest of the tour. Surely even the most die-hard Spit-dweeb (and I mean that in the nicest possible way:)), would not find one or two sorties too onerous to stand, in order to fly the Spit against it's historical nemesis.

My main concern is that even with the Spit-I, Hurri-I, 109E, and Ju88, we're still short some critical aircraft to make a good two-sided set up. An RAF Boston or Blenheim for the Brits and a Ju87 for the Germans would help alot to put together a well rounded CT. An He111 would also be great. Ah, well...in time, I suppose.

Sabre
CT Team

Wotan · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2002, 12:08:25 PM »

a wonder if any option to perking the spit would be to limit it to a few non-frontline bases.

As Udie said 1 or 2 perks are easy to get and with exception or the first day eventual spits will drown out the hurris.

I think the bob would be better suited for a scenario and/or tod.

As for a ct setup even with perking it would be to difficult to get a lot folks in there while holding some semblence of "historical immersion".

There could be no field capture. The lw would have a much greater advantage and most likely a larger % of numbers then existed in real life because it would be 1 big freie jagd with very little ju88s/ju87s/he111s.

So imho a bob setup that perks nothing would be the best way to keep the arena populated.

Lephturn · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2002, 12:09:26 PM »

Guys, this isn't a scenario, it's a basic Axis v. Allies arena IMO. Setup a planeset and let people fly what they wish. The more you restrict it, the less people are going to fly there IMO. Folks want interesting Axis V. Allies combat, not a completely historical re-enactment... that's what Scenarios are for. Don't get too anal over how many Spits vs. Hurris or 109's vs. 190's or whatever. Leave that for the scenarios.

I can understand perking higher performing versions of the same plane, but I think it's wrong to make it cost perks to fly even the lowest performing version of a basic plane like the Spit. Yep I know it's only a couple of points, but that doesn't matter. When Joe User decides to try out the CT for the first time and can't fly a Spit 1a, he's just gonna log most likely, and that's bad. If you want more folks to fly the Hurri, simply make sure there is something good to spend perk points on and make the Hurri the best way to get them. Simple. Positive re-inforcement will make people happy, simply trying to limit them into flying what you want them too will just piss 'em off and they'll leave.

Pick a decent (as large as possible) representative planeset in an Axis v. Allies setup and let folks choose what they wish to fly. Don't get all wound about how many spits there were vs. Hurris, we are not running a scenatio. I think most folks would be happy just being able to fly Allied plane vs. Axis plane... I know I will be. If you find you must do something to try and keep one model from dominating the arena then simply offer some kind of incentive to fly something different. That makes a whole lot more sense to me. If that doesn't work, then you can talk about something more punitive I guess, but I wouldn't try that first.

Seeker · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2002, 12:11:56 PM »

Nifty, I'm well aware it's the CT.

Eddiek sums it up nicely.

AH *finaly* gets some BoB action after what, three years? and these dillweeds are moist at the oppertunity to limit the Spit with absolutly no regard to limiting the LW.

Christ, half the time they're trying to sneak in a later 109 on the grounds that the "real" E model would be MA dead meat and limit scenario choices. And the Spit 1a would be....????

It's absurd how much heat this subject generates, and I for one had hoped that people would be able to fly Spits in the BoB AT LEAST without suffering the denigrations of the emphaticaly hostile AH culture to Spit drivers.

What the hell. It's your arena, piss it up as much as you want. Target Korea and even WWIIOL is looking more and more attractive these days. It may not have the flight model, but it doesn't have this whining anti- spit culture either.

Have it your way, here's one Spit driver you won't have to face.

Udie at Work · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2002, 01:07:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Seeker
Have it your way, here's one Spit driver you won't have to face.

Well let me be the first or 2nd to say, good. How about some constructive ideas with out all the insults? The guys are trying to figure out how to ballance the planes to match what was flown in the BoB. There's no conspiracy to take you're spit away from you. People in this very thread have suggested perking the 109e to get more 110's up, me included.

Do you have any ideas? Or would you rather call me a dillweed? If no ideas, please go away and let us talk about this set up. I personally have been waiting for this for 3 yrs now....

Karnak · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2002, 01:21:24 PM »

Good feedback all. I can see that there are valid points on both sides of the issue.

Udie,

10+ points might be appropriate if the Spitfire MkIa was a "just entering squadron service, but only 50 were used" aircraft. The intent of my idea wasn't to eliminate the Spit, but get a better mix of Hurris to Spits.

Seeker,

I'm a "Luftwhiner"? Please tell MANDOBLE, Wotan, Urchin and Pongo 'cause they've all accused me of being a "Spitdweeb". Luftwhiner and Spitdweeb at once. My my.

Actually the Spitfire is my favorite fighter and the Spitfire F.Mk XIVc is my favorite WWII aircraft.

Udie at Work · « **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2002, 01:52:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Karnak
Udie,

10+ points might be appropriate if the Spitfire MkIa was a "just entering squadron service, but only 50 were used" aircraft. The intent of my idea wasn't to eliminate the Spit, but get a better mix of Hurris to Spits.

Yeah 10 may be a bit too much. Maybe something like 6/4 spit1a/109e or even just 5 or 6 or each of the 2. The main reason I put such a high number is because of the 22 point 262 now

It took me a couple of hours to earn the points which led to a wonderful 5 kill 1.5 hour 262 flight that ended when I got stupid and HO'd a typhoon. LOL back down to like 5 perkies now

I have to say that after reading Leph's post I think I may agree with him that the BoB should be a senario type thing. They always worked well with the Saturday night Weekend Warrior deals back in WB 1.11 with a progressive plane set (first hour no spits at all

) The axis vs. allies all planes available has brought the most numbers in so far. I think the most important thing to get the numbers up is to come up with a good set up and leave it there for a while. Consistency is the key I think. Then once we get people hooked then start chaning settings to see what they think.

Still want to BoB though