Nationalism in AH.. what?

[Hangtime]

Great post Kieren.. I see and recognize the dilemma that exists on both sides the 'why try; just fly' question.

The cold hard facts are tuff to face; and I respect yah for looking hard at the situation and calling it like you see it...

 

My counter-question then would be, is it desirable to have opponents in war simulation, or is it better to pound the other side down into a defenseless position and hold them there? Is it better to have that occasional lone-wolf sortie where you find the perfect pilot that is a match for you, you have a 10-minute duel, and win or lose you had the time of your life, or find that same guy alone and you bounce him along with your four other buddies, each fighting for a piece?

I in fact rather enjoy immensely those 10 minute duels and spend most of my time in AH looking for and sometimes finding them.. we've had a few ourselves.   As for the other rather messy side effect of a very successful attack, an unpleasant man one said the object of war is NOT to die for your country; but rather make the other poor bastard die for his. I suspect that AH is teetering on the brink of becoming a full blown War Simulator, not just a Flight Sim.. and this new aspect is causing no end of woe to those that can’t.. or won’t adjust to it.

 

What is really the issue is that many have the desire to play the game like chess, that is be in overall control of the group or country, and move players (pieces) to just the right place to counter every enemy move.

The only problem I have here is the use of the word "many".. all to often there are too few.. or none at all that give a damn when the arena 'balance' is toppled and a 'nation' starts an organized onslaught on your fields and assets. All too often, there’s no one willing to take the trouble to put up a plan, outline the situation; call for resources to be organized and get the ball rolling.  So while we independently stalk our perfect furballs; or mount squad offence or defense operations involving completely useless center island airfields and Vfields; the organized enemy rolls up our flanks and hits our city and HQ..  again; and again.

So; when the situation warrants, I’ll ditch or land, giving up the far easier and safer hunt for the perfect furball and  I’ll holler for a pre-emptive attack on the CV that is spearheading the enemy’s offensive.. or mount a mission on to his flank to draw off his mounting attack on one of our beleaguered fields.. Sometimes; I’ll manage to get six or 8 guys together; working on an objective.. sometimes more come; sometimes; none. When we get the help; it usually goes pretty good.. we lose some; we win some; but we try to keep the enemy fighting over his border fields, not ours. Then I can go back to looking for ‘good’ fights.. and not become ensnared in ‘desperate defenses’.

It seems to me the old MA is gone.. I too lament often it’s departure, but now; we have a war simulator that has planes in it.. and FLEETS, and worst of all.. organized ‘nation’ opponents, vigorously probing for weakness, the threat must be met. All members of all nations will have to learn to keep an eye on the ‘strat’ and fly accordingly; or wind up as Kieren describes..  

“You have both opposing sides burning the candle at both ends, you are undermanned, and they have shut you to two fields. You can fight, but most usually it is in vain. Then you hear the geniuses telling everyone what they did wrong, if only they had listened, people start yelling at each other... “

 I ain’t liking that scenario one stinking bit. It’s time to get organized; or be raped nightly. Refuse to organize; refuse to co-operate on the squad level at a minimum any time the homeland is threatened, and we will be as sheep; lead to the slaughter.

Which is what brings me to the reason for this thread… the questions I originally asked; and none have yet to answer..

Question.. when faced with an organized 'national' adversary (that’s mowing down YOUR nations fields), is it advisable to organize a defense?

Question.. if you answered yes to the above but do not ever get organized, what WOULD make you organize?

[/b]

Well; do we organize; or do we just get vultched all damn night? Squad leaders.. think about it. Think about what you are doing; where you are going in the context of the ‘big board’. Stay the hell away from those center island fields.. there is NOTHING there of strategic importance. If you see a mounting attack; call for assistance; WRITE A MISSION, explain the threat, what you want to do; campaign for volunteers, get it staffed and FLY THE MISSION. Contribute; suggest; assist.. direct; DO SOMETHING. Don’t wait.. just DO IT.

[/rant]

G’night; thanks for the posts, all. <S!>


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Hang
1st/AG "Bishlanders"  << Recruiting!!

[ljkdern]

Adding bonus perk points for acting as part of a mission is about the only idea off the top of my head that might give some incentive to organize.

[SOB]

Good post Hangtime, and I can see how you could get frustrated.  I for one really enjoy participating in your or anyone else's missions, and I'd say 9 times out of 10 I'd pick them over furballing.  However, there is that one time that furballing is the objective, even if it conflicts with the 'national' interest.

Friday night, for example, I was defending A1 in a Panzer and having a blast.  This was about as strategically unimportant as you can get, particularly when combined with the fact that during this the Rooks were marching over our fields left and right headed strait for our HQ.  But it didn't matter one bit to me...I was killing things left and right and just having a ball.

When you find someone in this position, it's gonna be hard as hell to get them to end their fun to join a mission, even if they enjoy missions (and I really do!).  I wish I had something more to offer, but I think it's always going to be hit or miss and will usually be like herding cats!  As a Bish tho, I do really appreciate the effort you put into it and will do my best to join in whenever I see your CAPS coming across on the country channel.  After all, win or lose, missions are always fun  

The last thing you should do is switch countries.  First of all, there's the knits...I don't think I need to say any more on that.  Secondly there's the Rookies...while they do seem to be a slightly tempting choice, you have to realize that those cross-dressing nancy boys that call themselves the ASSassins are part of that country and they're quite fond of anything that walks on four legs and can be bound with duct tape.    I doubt Furball would appreciate that!

You can usually find a few FDBs online Monday on squad night, which reminds me.  I'm missing squad night!  Cya up!  


SOB

[Nash]

Yeah I think I'm seeing it the same way as you, Hang. Ever since the perks got awarded to resets, the arena HAS changed. It's been pretty interesting... and I don't lament that fact at all.

If ya flip this thing over...

The furballers have *always* been able to fur. I mean, that's basically all that the MA was... with resets happening almost by accident. And, well, of course ya can still have at it. There's always a fur somewhere.

But now... this past January with the introduction of fleets and the perk incentive... There's now alot more for the strat minded. Finally, really. The MA has seemed to come of age, in a certain respect, and that's been very cool.

The friction now is a weird sort of Amish vs. the Hippies vs. the Generals.   Or something like that. Whatever it is... it's probably natural.

Let the furballers fur, the strategists strategize, and the amish whine. It'll all be the same slobbering pathetic disfunctional community we've always had  .

Er... to sum up this ramble... There's something new for the Strat guys now. Be happy about it and use it to the best. And the fact that not everyone wants to participate that way is OK. Accept that as a strategic consideration much the same as you'd have to worry about deserters, attrition, spare parts, whatever... and go from there. No doubt every country is in the same boat on this.

Bish Rule.  

[Kieren]

Just so you know...

I am not against people who are strat minded, in fact I would probably be more like that if time allowed. I joined the Scenario Corps to help make more of this type of activity.   What I wonder is if the strat minded are willing to tolerate non-strat players.

The nature of the MA is that some teams are going to win, some will lose, but it will not be static. I don't think there is any way to ensure that your side will never feel the sting of defeat. There are enough people interested in their scores to relentlessly stalk perk points, on all sides, so that there will never be static lines of war. Despite all the cries and hand wringing of each country's chief protagonists (not pointing at you Hang, rather some of the more vocal "Our side is getting gangbanged all the time" types) all sides get their turn in the barrel. No biggie.

I wonder why we can't see the fun that is to be had in the world with all its possibilities. We focus so hard on what we believe we don't have and don't realize what we do have. What is panacea for the strat minded? As much as I love being part of an organized strike, I am not willing to be directed all the time. Yet, in the minds of some, that is exactly what should happen.

People think WWII Online will have this- to them I say you are waiting for a sure disappointment. No nonconscriptual body of people will ever cooperate in a total fashion. It may be pushed more towards squad activity, but total country participation in every objective? I'll believe it when I see it.

I don't think melee play has been designed out of AH, and I don't think it should be. I think it has much to offer for the strat minded as well, and that too is great. As usual the purists on either end are at odds.

[NHFoxtro]

     Hang are you still doing this Thursday? If you are I can get some people together.

[Toad]

I agree with Nash and Kieren.

The bottom line is that every player makes his own decision on what he likes to do be it on a particular nite or every time he logs on.

WW2OL may offer something that appeals more to the strat minded but I'm extremely wary of the "Supreme Overlord Field Marshal of All The Armies" commanders that have already appointed themselves to greatness....and it's not even out in public beta yet.

If that stuff materializes, I may not be able to stomach it. Happy to wait and see, however.

For now though, I think this stuff is the nature of the MA. Fleets and perks have wrought a change; it will take a bit of time to see what the new situation really is.

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Toad

Fly what you like. Like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy flies. It's a game.

[Westy]

"Cat get yer tounge; Westy??"

 Nope.  I just figured that all I have to add I'd already written two dozen times in similar topics brought up in the past week.

  At least your post wasn't put forth as a rant.

    -Westy

[Moose11]

 

Originally posted by SOB:
...those cross-dressing nancy boys that call themselves the ASSassins are part of that country and they're quite fond of anything that walks on four legs and can be bound with duct tape.      I doubt Furball would appreciate that!

SOB

 
Don't get too jealous SOB because we get alll the women.  


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Moose

EMAIL    assassins@aceshighcs.com              
EMAIL    adam@waitwait.net    

[This message has been edited by Moose11 (edited 02-06-2001).]

[Replicant]

I always try and join a mission if there is one going and it's something that I've recommended to our squad too... especially your missions Hang.  Often I'm defending, other times helping capture fields, and other times just suppressing fields that will hopefully jolt Bish into action elsewhere.  Unfortunately if I'm already flying then I can't join, but I always try to.  And lately I've been having major PC probs and lock ups otherwise I would have joined you last night Hang (I had to stay put in a Pnzr).

Regards

Nexx

[blitz]

Ahoi hangtime,

well, i live and die ( if nessasary ) for my country but i see that's kind of hard to do really organized things with lots of people in here.
So for me it works in three ways :

1. If i see a nice mission i join if possible

2. We do some tactical or stategical stuff   with squad.

3. I yell out on country ch if i see a threat/ chance and do my own thing.

i.e. for 3. Knights doin bad yesterday because of disorganization, then we had a major dump with a reset, thx god  
We started in the west corner and the only question was : Will we engage a45 + a48 or will they come for a28 + a24.
I immediatly upped a28, while there was an rapidly growing red sector bar a48, a45.
I yelled on green ch while their was an ongoin call : " ALL knights attack a43 now ",
which nearly drived my crazy, he,he  
Luckily we have some players in knightland who do care about country and don't like to fly without radar all the time and i realy loved to see developp a defence a28/ a24  just in time  
Meanwhile i had climbed s a28 10 miles and turned towards a45 with 1 goal in my brain:
"Barracks a45, maybe first goon will die"
First attack wave was meeting brave knight defenders and the second wave was mostly at below 5k when i reached a45 at 10 k.
"Helmet on, here i come", i did a step dive on a45, selected rockets , 300 miles , 400 miles 450- target in range- trigger-- 2 * 40 mm acks in front - trigger - pullout.
3 targets destroyed , no dammage, whoohoh.

Killed 2 fighters afterwards, then died due bad sa.

On goon hunting a24 afterwards + had 2 nice fights w f4u at a48, thought he was a goon  

blitz out

Wtg fdsky , who got their first goon from a45

[SOB]

 

[Arfann]

Believe it or not, there is a difference between countries as far as cooperation and communication for missions. We buccaneers jumped ship from the knights to the bish last tour, then to Rooks this tour. The Knights were pretty fair, the Rooks really good (so far) and the Bish a distant third. Don't know why, but Bish seemed to either focus on one furball area and forget about strat or scatter all over the place with no unity.

GronK  

[mrfish]

heh - i have had a great time in your missions hang - work in some 109's now and then and i will scream it with a megaphone!! join up join up fight the war!!

- of course no one will listen but that's another matter  

[Midnight]

I agree with you Hangtime. I like the idea of attacking fields and strat targets. Unlike what the furballers think, I do it to draw the fight, not run from it.

Writing missions is not the problem. Getting people to staff them is. Most days I come on, the 1st thing I do is look for targets of oppurtunity and post a mission for it. Very rarely does anyone join.

The other day, I posted a mission.. no one joined, so I ran it myself.

AAR-
09:00 EDT- Rolled B26 from A39 to P42. Destroyed all AA and VH
09:20 EDT- Rolled C47 from A39 to P42. Field Captured
09:30 EDT- Rolled B26 from A39 to A40. Destroyed all AA and VH
09:50 EDT- Rolled C47 from A39 to A40. Field Captured
10:00 EDT- Rolled B26 from A8 to A19. Destroyed all AA and VH
10:20 EDT- Rolled C47 from A8 to A19. Field Captured
10:30 EDT- Rolled B26 from A19 to P21. Destroyed all AA. VH left intact
10:40 EDT- Rolled C47 from A19 to P21. Field Captured. Assistance From BillReed and DmdBmg who destroyed VH and Ostwind.

At that point, I posted another mission. Several joined. Most did not tune RW to specified channel. Most did not tune radio 3 to the specified channel. Then the cat herding started.  

Sometimes, the easiest way to take a field is alone. The enemy doesn't pay too much attention to a single con in a sector. Put up a whole bar and you get mass resistance. Then, out of the few people that joined your mission (maybe half of the planned number) only a portion of them will be able to follow the profile and stick to it. It becomes very frustrating.

I've put several other posts up regarding mission planning over the past couple weeks. Something needs to be done to help.

My dream is to someday have to turn people away from joining because so many are lining up to take part. Maybe someday.

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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"

Midnight
13th TAS

"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)