So I want Terrible Frank (Ki-84).

[oboe]

Originally posted by Bullethead

As I see it, plane selection isn't a real customer draw....

...I think 1.09 had about the right mix of stuff. The emphasis was on features, although the new planes got all the notice.

If new planes aren't the draw, then why did they get all the notice?

Also, I think may be flawed logic to assume that because the Spit IX and the N1K get alot of use in the MA, the market has spoken.

For example, let's say I fly in the MA twice a week for a couple hours each.  I fly a variety of planes, and a fly to live, so my sorties last longer and I get fewer kills than a typical MA Spit/N1K flyer.    In a typical tour I might get 30 kills on 16 sorties, but the Spit/N1k guy gets 300 kills because he flys more and shorter sorties than me.   The stats would show an overwhelming bias toward Spits/N1Ks - but he and I pay the same amount to HTC each month.  So how has the market spoken?  

Finally, I don't think its insincere to want to see more national balance in the planeset.    I like historic matchups, and PTO settings are hobbled right now by the tiny Japanese planeset.

[gripen]

Early Ki-84s did not have the water injection but the one tested during war at Clark field by the TAIU-SWPA had water injection (did something like 422mph using Japanese 92 octane fuel).  After war  another Ki-84 was tested at Wright field using grade 140 fuel (did that 427), probably high octane fuel was used to substitute water injection.

gripen

[Mitsu]

Punt!

Gimme hayate, I wanna kill Boston Mk.III in it!

-Mitsu

[Mathman]

Mitsu,

I sincerely hope you get the Ki-84.  I look forward to fighting more planes from Japan in my F6F.  Nothing like fighting a historical enemy.

-Math

[Mitsu]

yeah, my ki61 cannot win from your f6f.



-Mitsu

[Mitsu]

Here is an interesting try.
I think that if TAIC Ki-84 is modelled in Aces High, perhaps Speed Performance Graph would be like this.
I consulted a TAIC Report and AH N1K2-J's speed graph.

TAIC Ki-84 Speed:
348mph at Sea Level
422mph at 21000ft
396mph at 30000ft

Wow... maybe it can chase after P-51 and La-7.  

Bring Ki-84-I-a to Aces High!!!

-Hermit

[SELECTOR]

i agree with the points silkboy made about an aircraft fitting certain criteria before being alloted to the plane set, not just because it was there ...I'm sure every one  can come up with an aircraft or sub-varient of one that will almost never be reproduced in AH. On the matter of perking aircraft, i think it is not good for the overall game. I personaly would like to see 2 main arenas.
MA .1. 1939-1944
MA.2. 1943-1945
with perkpoints reduced to say 70 for the 262 and 15 for the tempest.. i think thias would have a good effect on the game.

[Spritle]

Where are you getting this water injection from?  I have 4 book on the Hayate and NONE of them mention water injection.  Well one of them might because it's written in Japanese.  Ok about the 388mph that everyone is throwing around as the official number for top speed here is a little clarification on that.

From Rene Francillon's book "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War"
ISBN 0-87021-313-X

page 231

During flight trials the Ki-84 reached a top speed of 624 km/h (388 mph), climbed to 5,000 m (16,405 ft) in 6 min 26 sec and reached a service ceiling of 12,400 m (40,680 ft).  

Keep in mind this data is from the first service trial aircraft (prototypes).  Various changes were made to the aircraft before production aircraft started rolling off the line.  The prototype aircraft had 1,800 hp Nakajima [Ha-45] 11 engines with a single exhaust port on each side.  While production aircraft had a 1,900 hp engine (11, or 12) with a more efficient multi-port exhaust outlet.  These engines were rated for 1,800 hp and 1,825 hp for take off.  Later produciton aircraft had [Ha-45] 21 engines rated at 1,990 for take off.  

As to the questions about octane ratings the higher octane rated fuel allowed the test aircraft to operate with MUCH higher blower settings and thus higher horsepowers.  I've seen pictures of at least 2 of the test aircraft and one was the natural metal scheme shown above, but later this was painted olive drab.  The other aircraft was olive drab.  There is no mention if the US tests were performed on a natural metal finish aircraft or a painted aircraft.  

I'm not saying that the water injection never existed on this aircraft, but none of my references mention it.  Vermillion would probably have more info on this subject.

I'd like to see the Frank as well, but the fuel quality question is a bugger for sure.  If you're going to put fuel constraints on the Frank then you are going to have to put fuel constraints on all late war luftwaffe aircraft as well.  Not to mention the fact that you would almost to be forced into taking into consideration the quality control or lack there of for materials and workmanship for the axis aircraft.  So then we would need to see random equipment failures and stuff like that.  It would be kind of hypocritical to say lets only model poor quality control for fuel but not for anything else.

my 2 cents,
Spritle

[Vermillion]

Spritle, I'll have to check to be sure, but I think the aircraft tested in the US were painted.  

I have a aviation magazine from the 70's (can't remember which one) which talk quite a bit about the Ki-84 tests in the US (but no real hard data other than the 427mph at critical altitude number). I'll have to dig the magazine out of my shelves and see if it has many pics.

I'm not sure if the engine had water injection or not, but I do know that the Ki84 and the N1K2-J used the same Homare engines. I have one book that might have info on that, so I'll check.

On fuel quality, I feel sure that any Ki84 in AH would be created using the 388 mph manufacturers data. Sinces thats the conditions under which it operated during the war.

[batdog]

Wow..you guys are like...ate up. If I ever want some techie info on a plane I know where to post...

Bring the KI84... it'll be no different than the swarmsof other late war planes seen. In fact it'll add some variety and I bet w/its low ammo load the infatuation will eventualy wear off so the die hard "meatball" lovers can enjoy their ride.


xBAT

P.S. Besides...Mitsu and his homies deserve some luven from HTC...them and those spagettie boys!

[Spritle]

Vermillion,

I'm not so sure that the 388 mph figure would be accurate.  As Francillon states that was achieved with the lower horsepower engine.  Now how much 100 horsepower is going to get you in top speed I have no idea, but it's got to mean something.  

Also as to the conditions it operated during the war well that is what I was addressing with my QA statement.  Why stop at fuel?  It seems kind of rediculous to say well they only had XX octane fuel, but all other parts were NOT affected by the relentless bombing of the allies.  Or here is another take on that argument.  Since the entire object in the MA is to capture airbases shouldn't all airbases be equiped with the same octane fuel?  If not then if you capture a base shouldn't you get the fuel that was still there? (Especially since P-51's are fighting side by side with Fw190's, and N1K2's)

Anyway obviously there are plenty of things not modeled.  Here is a little anecdotal quote by Saburo Saki on the N1K2.

"Take that idiot [Minoru] Genda. He could barely fly, but he jumped up and down about the Shiden-kai ["George"], so everybody else pretended to like it, too. That plane was a piece of crap, put together by a third-rate firm [Kawanishi]."

Now obviously HE didn't think all that much of the N1K2, but as it stands in AH, the George is a pretty ferocious aircraft.  So who was correct?  Saki or the AH flight model?

You can read the rest here.

http://www.danford.net/sakai.htm

[Sikboy]

There is an epidemic of narrative showing up as evidence lately. I'd point out two things in that Article (Which I've read before, and is a great read): 1. the Author states that these are his memories of the interview and that he did not take notes. He also asks that no quotes be attributed to Sakai in "any published forum." While I'm not sure that this qualifies, it certainly decreases the weight of his comments.
2. in the interview Sakai  also says that "the mustang could do anything that the zero could do..." So, the pony can turn with a zeke at low speeds? Who is right, Sakai or the AH Flight model?

-Sikboy

[Spritle]

Well now that would be taking what he said a little out of context.  Not that he actually believed that the mustang could turn with a Zero.  I imagine he ment that statement more on the lines of the mustang was as good a dogfighter as the zero and better in many areas.  

I used the quote more to point to the fact that he felt that the George wasn't a good aircraft yet in AH that couldn't be further from the truth.  

Now obviously at the point in the war in which the George came into production the state of manufacturing in Japan was at an all time low.  (the elderly and children made up a majority of the labor force)  It would be obvious then that quality was sub-par to say the least, yet this is NOT modeled by AH, but it IS the condition in which it (the George) operated during the war.  And since Saki flew the aircraft at that time he would be a better judge of the quality of the aircraft.  It would seem that putting a limit on the quality of fuel available is somewhat arbitrary when you completely ignore the thousands of other factors that make up the performance of an aircraft.  Remember it takes more than just fuel to make an aircraft go.

Here is some more info on the Ki-84.  In August 1943 the second pre-production example was reported to have achieved 394 mph (643 kph) level speed at 21,800 ft (6,645 m) piloted by Tachikawa test pilot Funabishi. In diving trials the same aircraft achieved 496 mph (798 kph).  I'm trying to firm up the source on this.

Spritle

[Sikboy]

I would go so far as to say that you're also taking his comments out of context (at least to the extent that I was). The quote you supplied was in the context of "Japanese Leadership" and was more a comment on the Bad promotion system within the military than it was about the abilities of different aircraft. I've not read Samurai! so I don't know what Sakai's experience was with the George. We also don't know what he's refering to when he says that it is "Junk" Could it be a reference to the reliability of the egnines? Perhaps he was dissastisfied with it's low speed turning as compared to the Zeke? Or was he comparing it to what was comming out of the US by that time (experience gained from fighting against them). We don't know. He doesn't elaborate.

I too want the Ki-84 to be added to the plane set, but I'm very leary of using the American numbers. I mean, giving the engine a major boost from hi quality fuel is different, IMO, than not modeling reliability issues. There is also the added confusion of conformity of data. For example, are the Ki-61 and N1K2 modeled from US tests using moonshine? What about other planes? Luftwaffe planes? I'd prefer to stick with either company specs or an average of available data. But that's just me.

-Sikboy

[-=Silo=-]

How can you model a the Ki-84 w/ 1990hp injected engine to go only as fast a 1800 hp engine with no injection and not hitting full RPMs.

I have seen a more reasonable (but cant recall where) number of 415-7 mph tossed around for 1990hp Ki-84s.