Originally posted by Dowding
99.9% of people in Gibraltar want to stay part of Britain. End of discussion, I believe. The Spanish have no right to even demand Gibraltar back.
Well I guess that it is because Gibraltar, being as it is the most important international black hole for black money/major drug traffic operations/illegal inmigrant mafias/etcetera etcetera (LOOOOOOOOONG etcetera), is a nice place to live because you live in a place full of (black) money and (bought-with-illegal-money) resources. Not to forguet that you can run illegal businesses in spain beiing based at, and living it Gibraltar...5 km away from the spanish police but without them being able to arrest you.
Conventient, ain't it?. What a shame, and you still defend that state of things. Says a lot about you guys.
BTW, you must have to read the Utretch peace treaty, ain't it?...that's the ONLY reason Gibraltar "is" (it isn't) british...so you would want to take that treaty and then to stick to it, isn't it?
You claim the ownership of Gibraltar?. Nice. But then comply with the treaty wich gives you the USAGE (not the sovereignty) over that place.
Also comply with the LETTER of that treaty. That means that you Get the diddly out of that air base you placed there illegally (because is built half into spanish soil,half into demilitarized no-man's-land).
Get the diddly out of 40% of the land you got (as a favor from the spanish government,and under agreement that you would return those lands after the diseases had pased) during the diseases of the XVIII and XIX century, and that you then hold illegally , and never left.
Make the Gibraltar parliament disband AT ONCE, because Gibraltar's sovereignty, according to Utrech's treaty, is SPANISH, being the Rock given to the British as a "cesion" of land to keep all the income it produces...but being the LAND spanish.
Finally, while you get the diddly out of all those places, and while you disband that illegal parlament, please CLOSE that place for the Black market, Mafias, Drug Traffic cartels and illegal immigration organizations. But CLOSE IT FOR REAL. Don't fake it as you've been doing for the last 30 years.
ARTICULO X DEL TRATADO DE UTRECHT (13 DE JULIO DE 1713):
El Rey Católico, por si y por sus herederos y sucesores, cede por este Tratado a la Corona de la Gran Bretaña la plena y entera propiedad de la ciudad y castillo de Gibraltar, juntamente con su puerto, defensas y fortaleza que le pertenecen, dando la dicha propiedad absolutamente para que la tenga y goce con entero derecho y para siempre, sin excepción ni impedimento alguno.
Pero, para evitar cualesquiera abusos y fraudes en la introducción de las mercaderías. quiere el Rey Católico, y supone que así se ha de entender, que la dicha propiedad se ceda a la Gran Bretaña sin jurisdicción alguna territorial y sin comunicación alguna abierta con el país circunvecino por parte de tierra. Y como la comunicación por mar con la costa de España no puede estar abierta y segura en todos los tiempos, y de aquí puede resultar que los soldados de la guarnición de Gibraltar y los vecinos de aquella ciudad se vean reducidos a grandes angustias, siendo la mente del Rey Católico sólo impedir, como queda dicho arriba, la introducción fraudulenta de mercaderías por la vía de tierra. se ha acordado que en estos casos se pueda comprar a dinero de contado en tierra de España circunvecina la provisión y demás cosas necesarias para el uso de las tropas del presidio, de los vecinos y de las naves surtas en el puerto.
Pero si se aprehendieran algunas mercaderías introducidas por Gibraltar, ya para permuta de víveres o ya para otro fin, se adjudicarían al fisco, y presentada queja de esta contravención del presente Tratado serán castigados severamente los culpados.Translation:
ARticle X of the Utrecht Treaty (13-july-1713)
The Catolic King, in his name and his successor's, gives in this treaty the full and complete property of the city and Castle of Gibraltar to the Great Britain's Crown, along its port, defences and fortress wich it owns, giving the property forever, without impediment and with full freedom on action inside it.
HOWEVER, to avoid any abuse or fraud in the introduction of merchant goods into Spain, the Catolic Kings wants, and it is to be understood that way, that such property is given in cesion to the Great Britain WITHOUT ANY TERRITORIAL JURISDICTION AT ALL, and WITHOUT ANY KIND OF OPEN LAND COMMUNICATION WITH THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRY. As the sea lanes with the Spanish coast can't be open and secured at all the times, and given that from that reason it may be that the soldiers of the gibraltar's garrison and the inhabitants of the city may come into great troubles, being the mind of the Catholic King only to forbid, as it has already been expressed avobe, the fraud in the introduction of merchant items by the means of land communications, it's been agreed that in those cases the British crown may buy with money into spanish land the provisions and the rest of bassic needs for the use of the inhabitants of the city, the prison, and the ships in the port.
But if any other merchant goods introduced in Gibraltar, being it for changing them for other goods, of for any other reason, they will be given to the spanish authorities, and presented a reclamation of the violation of this Treaty, the guilties will be severely punished The rest of the X article talks about the British not allowing the moors to live in the city, about granting them freedom to have Roman Catholic religion ,and securing a 1st option of purchase if the British were to sell the ownership of gibraltar.
So, Dowding...You want to play by the rules?. Nice....lets start
-"british" Gibraltar (I put it into ""s because as you see, YOU HAVE NO JURISDICTION ---WHATSOEVER-- over Gibraltar) will have no parlament...because it is ILLEGALLY constituted.
-"British" Gibraltar will be reduced TO ITS ORIGINAL LIMITS, and have NO AIRPORT (because you built it in non-ceded lands)
-"British" Gibraltar will have CLOSED ACCESS by land with Spain except for the most bassic needed commerce for the survival of the garrison, the ships and the people in the city. EU? what's that?...we are talking about Gibraltar, and GIBRALTAR IS SPANISH ,sir. Read the treaty.
But see...don't do all that...even while you cheated the ownership of Gibraltar for 3 centuries, don't do that. Do another thing. ENFORCE LAW there. For real. SERIOUSLY.
The day you REALLY ENFORCE law in Gibraltar (or leave the spanish police a free hand to do it), be sure that with all the illegal money and bussiness running there seeing his paradise gone, would go away ...meaning that all the richness of the Rock would vanish.
After 2 years of that, ask the people in Gibraltar if they still want to be a forgotten place in the UK map,poor and no longer the place of the international mafia money interchanges...or they want to be a part of Spain.
What do you think they will say?.
Gibraltar is the place where most hachis enters spain, where the illegal immigrant mafias are based (out of the spanish police reach) .Where most black money go (forget Caiman islands...Gibraltar is the place to go!). Is the no-law place to go if you want to earn black money.
And it is enough already. Luckily it seems taht we'll soon have shared sovereingty and all that mess will be solved wether you want it or not....(lol what a joke...the UK never was a legal sovereign of that land and we have to NEGOTIATE a shared sovereingty...that says lots about the cynism of the UK during 3 LONG centuries)
so...
Originally posted by Dowding
The Spanish have no right to even demand Gibraltar back.
Maybe. According to that treaty, the rock is yours to do whatever you want in it...
But you have no right to operate a police there, and the Spanish do (jurisdiction over gibraltar is Spanish).
But you have no right to give authonomy to a place you don't have sovereignty over (and Gibraltar's sovereign is the Spanish King)
But you have no right to buid or live in spanish or no-man's land soil (And you've been stealing lands for 300 years)
Repeat that again, dowding...how whas that?...we have no right to demand WHAT?! OF COURSE we have the right to demand!
heh...talk about cynics
