The Hispano and Tank busting.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by flakbait
Panzer IV H Armor Specifications from German Tanks of WW2.

Not my area of expertise but I understand that the Pz IVJ, which came out in mid-1944, had the roof armour thickened up, and that the Panther and Tigers had thicker roofs to start with.

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[Tracer-15]

your all forgetting something....something that i use to terrify tankers....THE HURRICANE IID.........TWO 40MM CANNONS>.....WILL FACK UP ANY TANK U SEE........just tap the cannon button and one shot should rip a m3....m16........hold for a few round.....m8 dies.......put a good 10rnds into a panzr and it will die spectacurlary

[Tony Williams]

There's an item on the 40mm Vickers S gun fitted to the Hurricane IID and IV on my website. Basically, it was capable of penetrating around 50mm armour; enough to deal with a Pz IV in a side or rear attack, but not enough for a Tiger. The IID was quite successful in N Africa, until the Tiger came along, and was later successful in SE Asia against the lightly-armoured Japanese tanks. However, the last Hurricane IVs in Europe were taken out of service in March 1944, before D Day. Possibly a mistake...

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[MANDOBLE]

It is not only a matter of penetrating armour, the shell must keep enough energy to cause havoc inside the tank, not just some holes in the roof. IMO, only hurryIID, IL2 and Yak9T should be able to kill panzers with guns.

Now look at the PzIV gun mounting and the gun thickness, how easy would be to disable the gun? Probably much harder than just penetrating the roof of the tank while we have guns disabled in AH everyday due straffing.

[Tony Williams]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
It is not only a matter of penetrating armour, the shell must keep enough energy to cause havoc inside the tank, not just some holes in the roof. IMO, only hurryIID, IL2 and Yak9T should be able to kill panzers with guns.
 

You are right to point out the difference between penetration and destruction. There was one incident in N Africa when Hurri IIDs drilled through several tanks. However, the crews had taken cover beforehand, and were able to get back into the tanks and drive them away.

There are several different damage scenarios. The most likely is that a penetrated tank will be temporarily out of action due to injuries to the crew, from steel fragments flying around inside. That didn't always happen; there are stories of AP shot punching straight through a tank from side to side, and not injuring anyone.

The next level might be a disabling hit, eg on the track or suspension, which takes a bit of time to repair. More serious would be a disabling hit on the turret ring, which might jam it. You do of course get occasional freak shots. I have seen a picture of a Panzer IV with a neat hole drilled from side to side through the gun barrel, done by a Hurri IID.

Catastrophic destruction of a tank, beyond any repair, was generally caused by fire and explosion. Achieving this was really a matter of luck; it depended on what the penetrating shot hit. Obviously, the bigger the projectile you can hit the tank with, the more likely this is to happen.  The Germans found the Bk 7,5 slung underneath a few of the Hs 129s to be very effective. But then, I have a round of ammo for that gun, and it takes quite an effort to lift.....

Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[illo]

PzKpfw-IV H

top turret armor 15mm
deck armor 12mm

Here is what i think.

If shot from VERY high angle dive and close hispano could penetrate top turret.

If rear deck was hit from high angle dive(more than 45degrees) 20mm hispano round could penetrate armor and damage weak spots in engine and fuel system.

On sides, rear and front armor is simply too thick to have any other effect than round ricochet off.

Also realistically .50cal isnt any threat to PzKw-IV.

.50cal was useful against some german Jagdpanzers like Panzer-IV(note not PzKpfw) and Hetzer which only had heavy and well sloped front armor but not much on rear/top.  All armored cars, lightly armored Panzerjägers (Marders, Nashorns) and halftracks were very vulnerable to .50cal fire from any direction but frontally.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
IMO, only hurryIID, IL2 and Yak9T should be able to kill panzers with guns.

Not only would this address the reality issues we are discussing here, I think this will also VASTLY increase the utility of these planes in the MA. I was in a few tank battles this weekend, and was having no end of fun in the Hurri2d. But there isn't much point in flying it since you can accomplish the same thing with greater ammo and ease with a P-47.

-Sikboy