5 most influential fighters of WW2

[Seeker]

S! Naudet.

A digression:

It would seem that the decline in the LW effectivness as a weapon of war co-incided with the switch from Blitzkrieg style close co-operation with the ground forces to a more "pure" air command role.

Would it not be true to say that the LW's true vital weaknesses were appaling intelligence capabilities, and an inability to switch contexts? Whilst it's true to say there were some high ranking LW staff who grasped the concept of Air war (Galland seems to be conspicous in this regard); in general, the German high command never really saw air power as a means to an end in it's own right, but as always subservient to the needs, aims and stratergies of the ground forces?

As you correctly say, post 1940, in the west at least, the LW was defensive in it's air operations, and lost.

In the east, it was offensive, and achieved some success (with the notable debacle of Stalingrad, where all promises of supply and cover were broken).

Has a defensive action ever been won by the LW? The Finns managed it using LW equipment, what was the difference in tactical doctrine?

We'll find out in the Sicily scenario, if the Allieds ever find the balls to show up................

[straffo]

Originally posted by Naudet

Both the tempest and the Spit XIV were better "pure" fighters than the P51 (or P47 or P38), but they both lacked the incredible range of the P51.

Don't forget the Yak3/9u and the LA7 they were good too.

[a_lazyman]

Wow! Friends, dont forget about russian fighters!

Yak-1(1940-year of the beginning of manufacture)  8721 pieces issued(all modifications)
Yak-7(1940)  6399
Yak-9(1942)  16769
Yak-3(1943)  4848

Il-2(attacker-fighter) (1939)  36163 pieces!!!
Il-10 (1944)  4955
Lagg-3(1940) 6528
La5(1942) 10003
La7(1944) 5905
MiG-3(1940) 3272
I-16 (1933) 9450
I-153(1938) 3437

[Naudet]

Seeker, i will follow you in this digression.

I think the LW lost the airwar, especially in the west through the inflexibility of the high command (especially Goering and Hitler himself).

The LW command didnt see the neccessity to produce masses of fighters for the defense before the early 1944. Before that any plane that was planned for production, must have had the ability to carry bombs.

This stupidy lead i.e. to a 6 month delay in ME262 production start, cause it was not cleared for mass production till it could be used as a fighter-bomber!

The problem was - as you mentioned- that the German Army in general treated the LW more as an assistance to the ground forces, especially the tanks. And when the LW was confronted with a defensive situation the command wasn't able to switch contexts.

The LW didnt really have the equitment for a defensive war till mid 1944 and than this equitment could not bring in its performance, cause the pilots that could fly it were dead or badly inexperienced.

I believe that the only defensive action won during the war by the LW were the engagement over france with the RAF in 1941 and 1942. Those were credited mainly to A. Gallands ability to switch tactics and adoped new ways of fighting.
In all larger defensive actions the LW lost, cause the whole command staff was still thinking "offensive" and could not react to the "new way" of war they had to fight.

On the other hand the fins concentrated on the defense and they acted according to this tactical doctrine. But even they couldnt stand the numbers and had to accept a peace dictate in 1944.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

I will off course put the P47 in that list.

It's like the Hurricane compared to the Spit in the BoB.

The P47 got overshadowed by the P51 and other planes but the Jug came in early into the conflict, did all type of work (A2A, A2G), participated in all Theaters of Operation, and got constantly upgraded till the end of the war till the ultimate beast (N/M models).

It also racked up some trophies (Most kills, top speed blahblah...)

[fdiron]

The P51 scored more kills than the P47

[illo]

You shouldn't forget that Soviet ground forces were thing that weighted most in crushing germans. Many people interested in air war (west) fail to see the overall picture. In the last weeks of war crippled Luftwaffe still flew organized missions at their main front east. They could gain local airsuperiority in chosen area at time and scored last victories. But at ground, war was lost years ago.

[illo]

Has a defensive action ever been won by the LW? The Finns managed it using LW equipment, what was the difference in tactical doctrine?

I think that we finns probably couldn't have stopped Soviet summer offensive at Karelian Ithmus without help from Luftwaffe. Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey (consisting of Stukas and II/JG54 190 jabos) was trasferred to Immola airfield at summer 1944. Their success in attacking soviet spearheads is confirmed by FAF pilots and finnish ground forces. II/JG54 commanded by Erich Rudoffer scored 66 aerial victories during this short ground attack assignment. .

[MiloMorai]

Northrop XP-56, flying wing that flew in 1943, conceived as a result of an informal competition in 1939 . Notice the 'P' for "pursuit"(fighter). It had more air time than the Horten.

[BBanzai]

In my opinion it was the P-38 that set the tone for all American fighter designs of the war, inluding durablity, range and fire power.

For those who say that the P38 didnt have the range to escrot bombers into the heart of Germany. The P38 was the first American aircraft to escort Allied bombers on mission to Berlin. Escorting all the way to the target and back. Also the P38 was the first American production aircraft to achieve over 400 MPH in level flight.

All in all the P38 had more first then any other aircraft in the American arsenal at the time. Unfortunatley it was ahead of its time in many regards and got a bad rep in the ETO due the incorrect fuel being used, problems with the superchargers and a heating system that left a lot to be desired. By the time these issues were resolved the P51 had arrived and as was mentioned earlier it was more cost effective, and had better performance in key areas.

Keep in mind when I choose the P38 as one of the most influencial aircraft of the war I am not looking at its performance. I am looking at innovation and what was applied from it for many generations of aircraft to come.

Just my opinion. Though.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by fdiron
The P51 scored more kills than the P47

True.  And the Hellcat scored more kills than the Wildcat.  But the P-47 and the Wildcat both had significantly greater effects on the war than the other two, because they met the cream of the enemy air force, and killed it.

- oldman

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by fdiron
The P51 scored more kills than the P47

Having the P47's switched over to the ground attack role is a big part of that number I'm sure.

I don't just look at planes destroyed.  Start adding in how much the Jug contributed to the overall war effort including ground attack, and that puts the Jug easily at the top of my list.

[AmRaaM]

Banzaii,  another first ... p38 first fighter over Japan.

[Samm]

I think the hurricane was more influencial on the outcome of the bob, however the spitfire was more influencial on the public .

The zero ofcourse becuase it had the range to attack Pearl and awake a sleeping giant .

The p51 becuase it protected the bombers destroying german cities.

 I'm not sure the USSR had any one influencial fighter, the IL2 but that's not a fighter .

 As far as Germany is concerned I don't think they had any influencial fighters . Yes the 109 was the most prolific fighter of wwII but did it change the course of the war ? And I'm aware that indeed the advent of the 109 changed aircombat tactics forever, however that was in the spanish civil war, not wwII. The fw190 while it did give to germany a period of short lived air superiority, I don't think it alone was very inluencial apart from encouraging Germany's enemies to make better fighters. The me262, very significant but I don't think it influenced the outcome of the war.

Although I do think the most influencial plane of the war was a german plane, the stuka . Under blitzkrieg in the dictionary there should be a picture of that ugly little plane. The stuka sank battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and destroyed how many DIVISIONS of tanks ? It fought on three continents, and was in service from the first day of WWII untill the end of the war in europe .

Having said this, I think that there were only three fighters that influenced the course of wwII remarkably. They are in order of most influencial:
1. Mitsubishu zero (brought US into war)
2. Hawker Hurricane (Did the most to save Britain in bob)
3. P51 Mustang (instrumental in the strategic destruction Germany)

However I must chose five, so..
4. Me109 (most prolific fighter of wwII)
5. Spitfire (for it's contribution to UK morale and that of Georring's LW)

[fdiron]

I agree Lephturn.  However, the P51 scored half of its 9,000 kills on parked aircraft.  After the bombers dropped their bombs on the target, P51s were allowed to strafe ground targets at will