Author Topic: 5 most influential fighters of WW2  (Read 2195 times)

Offline Tac

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2002, 11:28:51 AM »
fdiron, when the war began, germany had a LOT of experienced fighter pilots flying THE hottest plane of its time.

The RAF hurricanes and in later stages the spitfires with their green pilots and pilots from conquered european nation (green mostly) were no match for them in terms of experience and planes... but they quickly learned and with the use of radar, were able to hold back and inflict casualties on the LW.

Then the P-47's and P-38s and 8th AF buffs started flying over France and near germany, and for years they duked it with the LW vets, smacking down a lot of their experienced pilots out of the war.

The P-51 arrived at a time when the LW was very close to being worn out, few experienced pilots left and their pilot training programs were fekd up from lack of fuel. The P51 just took on what was left imo.

Offline Saurdaukar

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My list...
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2002, 02:51:26 PM »
In order of importance...

1.)  Messerschmitt Bf-109 - The aircraft that finally sealed the fate of biplanes.  The 109 was a quantum leap in terms of technology and redefined what a modern fighter should be.  Late war versions had trouble keeping up as an increasingly larger engine was stuffed into a small, early-war airframe.  None-the-less - 109's were still influential in delaying the Aillied air advance and remained in service with forgien air forces into the 1960's.

2.)  Supermarine Spitfire - The rival of the 109's, it held its own during the Battle of Britain and continued until the end of the war to serve with effect.  Its late-war varients were some of the finest fighters produced.

3.)  Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - A serious problem for the Luftwaffe from 1942 on.  The P-47 was responsible for most of the USAAF kills in the ETO and lead the way for all other late war US fighters.

4.)  Chance-Vought F4U Corsair - The fact that variations of this aircraft served with air forces of the world well into the 1960's is proff enough of it's effectiveness.  This aircraft turned the tide of the war in the Pacific by changing the tactics used - essentially nullifying the advantages of the Zero's.  In its final incarnation - the F4U4, we see the pinnicle of prop driven fighters.

5.)  North American P-51 Mustang - The posterchild of WWII aviation, the Mustang was responsible for lenghty escort of B-17's and B-24's over Germany.  While the air war was all but won by the time the Mustang arrived on the scene, it marked for the rest of the world what fighter aircraft must strive to be in the future.  Its low drag multi-lamenant wing was a first and that technology helped advance the US into the jet age.

Honorable Mentions:

6.  Focke Wulf Fw-190
7.  Mitsubishi A6M "Zeke"
8.  Grumman F4F Wildcat
9.  Hawker Hurricane
10.  Messerschmitt Me-262

Offline Kweassa

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2002, 08:51:39 PM »
1. Bf-109(1939)

With the Ju-87D and the Wehrmacht, introduced into the world the 'Blitz Krieg'. Coordination of airpower and ground forces, a whole new ball game of dynamic military operations.

  2. Spitfire(1940)

Though the Hurricane dealt with a lot of tougher situations, the Spit became a very symbol of the BoB, the world's largest air battle in history.

  3. A6M2 Zero(1941)

Finally sealed the fate of WWI air combat tactics as 'old'.  The painful lesson learned by Americans against the A6M2 helped develop aircraft with new emphasis on designs and advanced tactics that go with it.

  4. P-47C(1943)

The arrival of the USAAF gave the Luftwaffe a whole new type of challenge. Fighters that are more heavily armed, heavily protected, moves better at high speeds, and even faster than their own LW planes, operates better the higher they go. Turning point of the ETO air war.

 5. Me-262(1944)

What more is to say? Brought on the age of rockets and jets.

 ..


 Hmm.. my list seems like more of historical influence.. rather than actual military influence...

Offline Hooligan

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2002, 01:08:15 AM »
FW-190 because it has caused more ranting, tears, chest-pounding and arguments on flight sim BBSs than all other aircraft combined.

Hooligan

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2002, 03:02:36 AM »
Not true! :D

 The real 'bomb' in that sense would be the (you guessed it!) C-Hog...!

 Man, I hate to think what the BBS was like before it was perked..

Offline Hristo

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2002, 03:48:52 PM »
C-Hog and Niki, now that I think again ;).

Offline qts

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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2002, 04:09:34 PM »
In no particular order:

1 - Stuka. Symbol of the Blitzkreig.
2 - Arado Ar234 Blitz. The first jet bomber.
3 - Mosquito. High and fast and wooden!
4 - The Flying Fortress.
5 - The Enola Gay. Nuff said!

Offline gavor

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2002, 06:58:03 PM »
1. Commonwealth Boomerang - Designed in two weeks and built not long after using whatever was lying around. Remained in the RAAF until the end of the war. Tough and dependable, could sneak up on ground targets at extremely low speeds.

2. Commonwealth Wirraway - First Aussie built plane for WWII. Based on an American trainer of whose designation I cannot recall.

3. Lockheed P-38 - The US 38 pilots flew in the SE Asian theatre and loved Boomerangs because they marked targets so well and provided excellent ground support.

4. Mosquito/Liberator/Beaufort - Cos we built some.

5. La-7 - Because I got 5 kills in it last night.


Thats all, goodnight.

Offline Hooligan

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2002, 11:04:41 PM »
Actually the C-hog and N1k only cause tears and ranting because the 190 pilots think that flying an aircraft with 4 x 20mm cannons is somehow unfair.  So the 190 gets the credit for those rants also.

Hooligan

Offline Mathman

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #39 on: February 25, 2002, 01:25:34 AM »
Well, I don't know how this all fits into this discussion, but you could split the PTO into three distinct phases, each represented by a specific US plane.

1:  1942: SBD - responsible for much of the damage to the IJN.  IIRC, it was the US plane that sunk the most Japanese ships (tonnage-wise i think)

2:  1943-44: F6F - Responsible for the complete slaughter of Japanese aviation that was wrought during this period.

3:  1945:  B-29 - Firebombing the mainland completely destroyed the Japanese industrial capacity, not to mention the two atomic bombs dropped.

I think I read this in Tillman's book on the F6F, and it makes pretty good sense to me.

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2002, 04:34:15 AM »
:rolleyes:
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2002, 08:41:07 AM »
The P-38 was the FIRST ALLIED FIGHTER TO APPEAR OVER BERLIN. It was also the first long range fighter in the U.S. inventory. It was the first Allied fighter to be able to escort the bombers deep into Germany.

It was influential for several reasons, although it was not that influential on fighter design in W.W.II.

It had twin engines for range, speed, power, and reliability. It was an effective multi role fighter, interceptor, and ground attack platform. It had center mounted weapons for accuracy. It was an extremely stable and deadly gun platform. Almost all U.S. air dominance fighters are complex twin engine platforms, the only possible exception is the F-16, which is not really an air superiority fighter. All this from a design for a high altitude high speed INTERCEPTOR. That's right, the design of the P-38 was for a bomber interceptor, and not a true fighter plane. It was never actually design to do anything but shoot down medium and heavy bombers.

It did have its problems. First, it was originally designed with 1100 horsepower engines, and when produced horsepower increased from 1100 to over 1700, so the radiators and intercoolers were at times inadequate. It required better fuel than was commonly available in Britain. It required intense and expert maintenance to be entirely reliable. It required a dedicated expert pilot to be successful. A well trained dedicated P-38 pilot could take on ANY Axis plane short of the 262 and expect to emerge victorious. Any less than well trained pilot could expect to break even at best. It was a difficult plane to fly.

That being said, the majority of problems with the P-38 in Europe were as much or more the fault of the USAAF than the plane. Go back to the beginning of the bomber campaign, when escorts were not used. This immediately caused the majority of the P-38s to be sent to North Africa. From there, they went to Italy. The 8th AF in Europe was never able to recover from this mistake, and from 1943 on, they were extremely short of P-38s, which until the P-47 got big external tanks, and the P-51 arrived in numbers, was the only escort with the necessary range. Therefore, the P-38 was ALWAYS in short supply. Especially since the 5th AF in the SW Pacific was getting priority, because General Kenney made two or three trips stateside to ensure he got what he wanted. From 1943 until February 1944, the P-38 faced the Luftwaffe deep in Germany with only a small margin of help from the P-51. The P-47 was available in massive numbers, but could not go the distance, and the Luftwaffe would wait to attack until those mass formations of P-47s turned back.

Further, while there was a wealth of experience available from successful pilots in the MTO (remember how difficult to fly the P-38 is), none of these pilots were assigned to instruct new pilots, nor were they assigned to lead them in combat when they got to Europe. Even the very best P-38 pilots in Europe complained bitterly that they lacked experienced leadership and well trained pilots. It should be noted that the first P-51 squadrons had experienced leaders, and their new pilots were flying a plane that was easier to master in combat, even though when it was mastered it was no more effective than a well flown P-47 or P-38.

Since the P-38s were in such short supply, they were never allowed to fully develop, since until 1944 they were the only longe range escorts avaialble and as such no production delays could be accepted. This meant that any new upgrade would be either delayed or discarded. The dive flaps were delayed for this very reason, as were the improved oil coolers, intercoolers, and radiators. Further, these parts were supplied by the USAAF, and manufacturers took what they were given. Also delayed were power assisted controls which when installed, dramatically increased the roll rate, an improvement sorely needed in the P-38. Not to mention the improved cockpit heating and sealing.

The automatic controls for the oil coolers, radiators, and intercoolers were also delayed. These were necessary because poorly trained pilots did not properly manage engine temperatures, and this alone was the biggest cause of poor reliability of the P-38. Pilots simply did not keep the oil and coolant warm enough at high altitude during cruise conditions. Then, when in combat, they didn't open the cooling doors and the engines overheated.

Finally, some improvements never made production, because the short sighted USAAF and WPB never made efforts to get the secondary production at Nashville off the ground. Among these were a new 1800+ horsepower Allsison engine, the three and later four blade Hamilton Standard High Activity Paddle prop, the K-14 gyro stabilized gun sight, and the master combat control system, which with a single act set the engine and prop controls for maximum performance, switched the fuel tanks and dropped the external tanks, turned on the gun heaters, and turned on the gun sight light. All of these improvements, along with possibly a 50% increase in the number of available P-38s, as early as mid 1943, could have made a huge difference in what happened between June 1943 and the end of the war.

Poor maintenance was a factor also, no doubt the maintneance crews had no better training than the pilots. They allowed the electrical components of the Curtiss Electric prop to corrode due to exposure to harsh weather in Europe (the Curtiss prop should never have been there, the Hamilton Standrard prop was hydrostatic, and far more reliable, the use of the Curtiss prop was an inexcusable erro on the part of the USAAF). This caused the props to "run away" and blow the engines, and also caused the circuit breaker and fuses to blow in the prop controls, not to mention overloading the electrical system, burning out the generator and wiring. They also failed to properly maintian the engines and engine controls themsleves. This caused more overheating, and caused rough running and engine damage.

Until Doolittle took over, no one in the 8th AF had the good sense to assure that the proper fuel was available either, and the British fuel was not acceptable for use in the P-38, the octane was too low, and the fuel would not stay properly blended, the octane raising components and the lead used to lubricated the valves and seats fell out of suspension in the intercoolers, causing detoantion and burnt valves.

Had the 8th AF merely kept their P-38s, and had the foresight to get the same drop tanks for their fighters that were used in the SW Pacific, not only would there have been plenty of P-38s, but the P-47 would have been able to go the distance in mid 1943. The effect of double the compliment of P-38s, and the full compliment of P-47s going all the way to the target would have meant air dominance by the Allies in mid to late 1943, as opposed to April of 1944. It would be difficult to tally the number of lives of bomber crews and fighter pilots saved.

For all the fluff about the P-51, several things are forgotten. The P-51 had several glaring problems. From their introduction until February of 1944 and later, there were two major problems, the first of which was a continual propensity to foul plugs, resulting in rough engines and aborted missions. The other remains to this day. Merlin engines are known to develop cracked cylinder heads. This dumps the coolant quickly. Merlins are incapable of tolerating low coolant conditions, and the small narrow bearings sieze very quickly. The P-51 simply is not the invincible all conquering plane popular history leads most to believe.

The P-47 had the fewest problems of all, and was available in far greater numbers at least until mid to late 1944. Tough, rugged, reliable, and effective, its only real drawback was range, and no one in the 8th really made serious attempts to solve this problem and use the large tanks used in the SW Pacific until 1944.

By the way, the date at which the P-51 actually even equalled the P-38 in numbers deployed in Europe was sometime in April of 1944.


As far as influencing the war effort, the P-47 and the P-38 go much further than the P-51. While what it (the P-51) could do (long range and high speed) did influence the design requirements for fighters, not many of its actual design features are carried on todays fighter aircraft. The plane that most resembles the P-51 in the current inventory is the F-16, which is a relatively cheap and simple multi role plane compared to the F-15, F-18, and F-22, which are twin engine, complex, heavily automated, air dominance fighters capable of multi role use. Hmm, large, twin engine, complex, air dominance, multi role use, wonder which W.W.II fighter that most resembles?
« Last Edit: February 25, 2002, 08:44:44 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline Monk

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2002, 11:25:09 AM »
Hmmm?

 1. P47c
 2. the JUG
 3. P47d
 4. Thunderbolt
 5. hmm....did I mention the P47



  Monk out

Offline HoHun

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2002, 02:51:08 PM »
Hi everyone,

I don't think 5 are enough. Here's a complete list of the most influential fighter aircraft of WW2, in chronological order:

1.) Messerschmitt Me 109 - the first of its kind, and it set the standards for the rest.
2.) Supermarine Spitfire - the first Allied fighter that was as good as the Me 109
3.) Mitsubishi Zero - superior to all its Allied contemporaries.
4.) Focke-Wulf Fw 190 - when it appeared, the Allied had nothing that was equal.
5.) Lockheed Lightning - a failure in Europe, but it broke the Zero's superiority in the Pacific.
6.) Grumman Hellcat - the other aircraft that defeated the Zero.
7.) North American Mustang - it defeated the Luftwaffe. And that's what the Luftwaffe thinks! :-)
8.) Messerschmitt Me 262 - the first of its kind. The first operational jet fighter. It pioneered swept wings and unguided missile air-to-air armament.

You could, perhaps, leave out 5.) and 6.), but that wouldn't bring down the number to 5, and I think they're too important anyway.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Oldman731

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5 most influential fighters of WW2
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2002, 03:51:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by HoHun
7.) North American Mustang - it defeated the Luftwaffe. And that's what the Luftwaffe thinks! :-)


Sez who, bub?

- Oldman