What do the unions think about...

[gavor]

Depends what middle class means to you. Middle class to me are people with average office jobs who live a normal life of house car family etc. To save arguing lets drop the middle class bit as different people have different interpretations.

We dont have nuclear weapons cos we dont wanna be blamed for destroying everything when some guy with more stars than brains decides to hit the switch cos he's got a nice bunker to hide in, and #*&$ the rest of the world. Besides, the country isnt run by the labor party, its run by the Liberal party(a misnaming as its actually the conservative party.)

The rest of your post im ignoring as a humorous poke at Australia. However, i dont think that dream is 'frivolous' i just don't believe it should be the only thing people want. I want a nice house to live in and a car and kids, but my plans dont stop there. They dont even start there. Those things are a by-product of the more interesting stuff i wanna do. This is a hijack, back to union talk.

[capt. apathy]

I'd say the American dream thingy is a bit dated isnt it?

Ya very dated, things like safety and dignity in the work place, a living wage to provide a stable home to raise kids in, maybe even sending 1 or 2 of them to collage if they work hard and help with the costs.  How passe.

[gavor]

It is to me. The safety etc in the workplace isn't what i meant. Only the house, car bit. A safe and responsible workplace along with a decent wage are a right that should never be taken away.

Stable home and kids etc etc is ALL that people seem to settle for. I'm not coming out and saying its a bad thing, just the ideal that its all you should aspire to. Thats all im challenging.

[capt. apathy]

It’s not that it's all you should aspire too, it's that it is the minimum you should settle for.

And as far as people saying unions aren't necessary and how people can have a safe environment and decent wages without them, it's crap.  The only reason non-union places have those things is that they have to compete with union companies for employees, also there employees would vote a union in if not treated reasonably fairly, so even if you aren't union, like it or not you benefit from them.

I’ve read the posts above about how the union rules don't work; here’s another point of view.

When I married my wife her step dad had a good union job in manufacturing.  He used to always complain about how the union was just taking his dues to support union officers, and how 'they' never did anything for him.
(Actually it really irritates me when union people complain how the union never does anything for them.  They are the same ones who never go to meetings or participate in any way. There is no them in union it's us, and if you don't participate or try to guide your union to what you think is right then you're nothing but a whiner, please shut up)

Anyway after almost 30 yr. at his job the company sells to a non-union company.  He’s requested to write a letter explaining why he's valuable to his company and why they should continue to provide employment.  
So he writes the letter and keeps his job.  But they don't want to provide health insurance to so many employees so while they are still working the same man-hours at the plant they are working 6 10-hour days a week per employee to make up for the ones they laid off. He now works 150% of his previous hours and takes home about $35 a week less.

Btw he now really miss's his union.

The thing is that when unions are working well you never notice them you only notice problems and conflicts.

In my trade union craftsmen are generally much more skilled than the non-union.  I see many of the guys who we won't dispatch to jobs because they are incompetent working non-union project in the mills where I work.

While we provide a pool of skilled craftsmen who know each other and know each others strengths and weaknesses, most non-union contractors know a few 'craftsmen' and the rest are provided by the known guys FBI (friends, brothers and in-laws)

We (and all the other crafts unions I have knowledge of) allocate a percentage of our dues to provide training to any member who desires it to keep us up to date on new processes and procedures, also about 25 cents an hour goes to pay for training of apprentices.

If a guy is lazy or just plain stupid the odds of him making it through the first 6 months of his apprenticeship is quite slim.

Also the non-union companies have another neat trick I forgot to mention.  Most don't provide benefits until you've worked for them for 90 days. So unless you are one of the very small core group, they lay off all employees after 85 days or so, and they cycle their workforce so they hire you back after a couple weeks so you never get benefits or any sort of pension.

In the union our employers pay into OUR health insurance and pension (it's ours we manage it ourselves the company has no say and cant invest it for themselves) payment is based on a per hour rate so if you work for a different employer every month you still have benefits. Many non-union people work full time (overtime all the time) but they go from project to project employer to employer being cycled through the system and never getting befits or any kind of retirement plan. And they can't really take care of their own retirement because their wages are much lower because they are competing with the guy they work next to for the same job.

[LePaul]

Ok, I've got to chime in

I was totally anti-union up to a year ago.  I got a job in the evenings at UPS and had to be a Teamster to get the position.  Grumbling under my breath, I became a Teamster.  

$420 initiation fee, $33 a month dues....they don't take the $420 all at once (if you wanna pay it all and have it paid for)...they nail you for $25 a week until you pay the Initiation Fee (which is non-refundable after 6 weeks) and THEN, you have to pay any and all back dues you didnt pay while you were paying the initation fee.  So with all these great deductions, myself and other new guys were unloading package cars in 80-95 degree weather, high humdity and at the end of the week, we had a $65 paycheck to show for it.  Many of the guys who started new with me said to hell with UPS and the Union.  $8.50 an hour for back breaking work, dues/initiation deductions just was too much for some of the guys to deal with.  I stuck it out.

(Now, I'm 45 pounds lighter)

Anyways, in my case, after I'd been at UPS for several months, my supervisors told me of an upcoming postion they wanted me to apply for.  I did.  They told me I was a "slam dunk" for this job.  And, for several months, I was back patted and told how great I'd fit into this new position.  Well, guess what.  Human Resources states that the job in question is only for Non Union staff.  The Supervisors who made all these great promises vanish, and deny making any such promises.  The Union rep tells HR that if I wish to leave to take the job, they have no problem with that, they want to see me suceede whether its Union or Non Union.  Nope, they wont.  A huge pissing match ensues between the Teamsters, telling UPS they are dicks for lying to me, and UPS putting their hands over their ears and humming loudly "us did what?"

During all of this, I gained a lot of respect for the Union.  To date...

1) They have always treated me with respect
2) They have never lied to me
3) They always return my calls promptly
4) They always call me "Sir" on the phone
5) They genuinely care, they called me repeatedly at home when I was injured to make sure all was well.

UPS, on the other hand....

1)  Suffers from "too many cooks in the kitchen".  4 Supervisors, all saying different things.  Sup 1 says "do this" Sup 2 says "No no, I said do this" Sup 3 says "Ignore Sup 1, to this now or else".  And the comedy continues.  No organization

2)  UPS prides itself it talking to its employees, stating that it wants to buy X amount of new jets, cars, diads (handheld pcs) and such.  Meanwhile, we have unloading equipment that is 40 years old, unsafe, people injure themselves badly on these things monthly, it seems.  The UPS building itself is a disaster waiting to happen.  We have conveyor belts that are so old, they are glazed over like rubber, that have diffulty griping boxes to move them along the line.  While UPS dreams of buying more jets to carry more load, they ignore our pleas to fix the broken equipment.  Settling, instead, on dealing with injuries and ignoring the issue.  After all, a field full of jets gets them more PR/visibility than fixing equipment that moves packages.

From what I see, working at UPS for a year now, the pros to UPS are...

1) Pension potential
2) Health/Dental benfits for part time workers
3) Never ending vaudville of "UPS Management"

The Cons are...

1) Its the most grueling, physical job Ive ever worked.  Its pretty intense

2) Low pay.  $8.50 an hour.    The kids up the street at Mickey Dees are making that, as is the kid herding shopping carts.

Like i said, I started out being totally anti-union.  But, seeing how they stuck up for me and how quickly management went from my "friends" to "who are you?" educated me quickly.

I know ever union and employer is different.  There is always that one slacker who, if it weren't for the Union, would be fired and out of a job.  Those types make unions look bad.  

Anyways, thats my 2 cents.  I just got home from UPS and washed 10 trucks (30 footers...)....I'm tired and need my Ar234 fix  

[gavor]

I'm at work so you'll have to excuse that this jumps around a bit. I'm writing it in between trying to work.


It sounds to me like we agree that its the minimum to live some sort of comfy life. Everyone should have that same opportunity. Its just that i've gotten the feeling sometimes the American dream was pushed as the be all and end all of life. Get a job, pay taxes, have kids, get a mortgage...and forget the rest of your dreams. Maybe its just a perspective I have from being foreign .

I think circumstances are a little different here in Australia. Companies here aren't geared to look after people for their whole life. As an example, health insurance isn't company provided.  We have strict unfair dismissial laws. As I understand it the situation with people being kicked out after 85 days couldn't happen. These laws are so strict they're thinking about revising them a little. Once employed its almost impossible to fire someone.

Also, we dont have pensions anymore. Part of our wage is paid into a superannuation scheme. Theres no government pension once you retire either. Every worker has to organise his or her own retirement.

On a personal note, i'd rather negotiate my own job conditions and entitlements. In the past if I havent liked where i work or the conditions I work under I've quit. I won't give a bad employer the satisfaction of coming to them and asking for more when they know they're screwing me over. They'll only try it again.

Unions here are more like an organised militia, without the guns. As soon as a company doesnt bow to union demands everyone goes on strike. If someone doesnt they will be intimidated by other union members until they do. Theres a commission at the moment looking into the bullying and intimidation used by one of our unions.

I dont have first hand experience, i've never been in a union. But I do have parents who ran a small business and I know the problems they experienced. The unions were determined to get what they wanted even if it meant sending the business to the wall.

Lastly, I respect everyones opinion on this subject. I'm not telling you you're bad or stupid for joining a union, just that I personally hate them and will never join one. Some careers have workers that need a body to negotiate for them and while the principal is fine, but the reality of how our unions work is not. They're standover men who'll happily grind an industry to a halt if they dont get what they want. Maybe it's different here.

[Toad]

In the beginning, there were no unions.

What brought them about?

Do relatively happy, contentented works feel the need for a union?

What is the catalyst that makes them unionize?

It's piss-poor management that causes unions. Mistreatment of employees causes the employees to band together and form unions.

If Management treated the regular workingman the way Management would expect to be treated in a similar situation you'd never see a Union anywhere.

Unfortunately, once you get a Union it means the trust is totally gone and you'll have the Management v Union situation from then on.

Been a few hundred years but new Managers seem to feel the need to reinvent the Union wheel all the time.

The only thing worse than a Union.... is NO Union.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by Toad
In the beginning, there were no unions.

What brought them about?

Do relatively happy, contentented works feel the need for a union?

What is the catalyst that makes them unionize?

It's piss-poor management that causes unions. Mistreatment of employees causes the employees to band together and form unions.

If Management treated the regular workingman the way Management would expect to be treated in a similar situation you'd never see a Union anywhere.

Unfortunately, once you get a Union it means the trust is totally gone and you'll have the Management v Union situation from then on.

Been a few hundred years but new Managers seem to feel the need to reinvent the Union wheel all the time.

The only thing worse than a Union.... is NO Union.

Well said!

[capt. apathy]

well put toad.

btw One thing I forgot to mention in the reasons for not doing another crafts works.

Union jurisdiction over work is negotiated and informed by contracts.  In other words the company signs a contract saying they agree to exclusively use members of a the union for certain tasks. the company egrea to this when they sign the contract.  for you to do another crafts work violates this contract.

it's like a restraunt who agree's to only sell pepsi and in return gets certain perks or lower prices in exchange.  then one day the get an opertunity for a bargain deal on coke.  just because it would be better economicly for the company to buy coke instead of pepsi that day doesn't give them valid reason to break their contract.

Companies make exclusive contracts with each other all the time; it's only when they are asked to honor their contracts with workers that they whine about it.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Toad
The only thing worse than a Union.... is NO Union.

 OK, you came here to repeat the same mantra from your previous thread on unions.

 How about the real question I asked here? You argued that firing US union workers to give jobs to mexicans is bad.

 How about firing US union workers to replace then with robots? Would you or the unions argue against that? If so, I'd like to hear the arguments from you as you were most vocal in the previous union thread.

 miko

[Toad]

What actually happens Miko is what happened at GM when they began to use industrial robots.

There's an existing contract that covers who or what will do particular work. When the contract nears the expiration date, negotiations begin. In negotiation, Management and the Union work out a program for replacing human workers with robots. There are/were several methods; retraining of workers, replacement via normal attrition, replacement possibly via enhanced attrition like early retirement programs, etc. I don't know the details about how they did it at GM but I know it got done and continues to get done.

If you're asking if I'm opposed to robots the answer is no. I don't think it's smart to stand in the way of "progress".  At the same time, I don't think the human workers should be instantly sacrificed in the name of "progress and efficiency". There is always going to be a "transition period".

That's what negotiations are for and about; working out problems in a mutually agreeable way.

[midnight Target]

Unions cannot do anything more for an employee than management can. The trouble is that too many Managers never seem to realize this. Any company that is strapped with a union work force probably deserves it.

[LePaul]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Unions cannot do anything more for an employee than management can. The trouble is that too many Managers never seem to realize this. Any company that is strapped with a union work force probably deserves it.

Welcome to UPS   ;-)

[MrBill]

"Of COURSE you can't understand the Great American Dream thingie. You aren't American, bud. My American Dream is to buy a home, raise a family and have a decent career."

Good grief! Is this what the younger generation believes the "American Dream" has become?

If so, how far we have fallen!

A man who dropped out of school in the 6th grade to work in the fields full time, (dawn to dark was the work day) decided there had to be something better.  He jumped a freight west and there learned a new trade.
After learning, he got married and began to build his own business, his wife was his secretary as he did not write well and could barely read.  As the years went buy he learned to read and write and whatever else he needed to know.  He started a number of satellite businesses and became a millionaire before he was 50.

A different man got off the boat in New York, couldn't speak english, and had no money.  In 11 short years he was a millionaire and a recognized star world wide. (Arnie the Barbarian still can't speak english according to the "educated" )

These are stories of the "American Dream" ... house, wife, 2.3 children, dog and two cars in the garage are just Joe 6 packs' delusion.

Just my opinion ... I could be wrong.    

And has nothing whatsoever to do with the Union.

[Elfenwolf]

Well, what do YOU think the American Dream is? Nice post, Mister Bill, but the American Dream has been amended from taking over the world through the free enterprise system to economic survival in the onslaught of the attacks on the Middle Class. Sorry, bud, but I'm bellybutton deep in alligators. It's hard for me to remember my original purpose was to drain the swamp.