Author Topic: Today is the Day?  (Read 1579 times)

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8542
Today is the Day!
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2002, 04:57:37 PM »
Staga,

The difference was that the German people were the aggressors in WWII.  They started the war.  They decided to roll the dice for world domination and enslave the rest of Europe.

If 100000-250000 are later killed in an air raid its merely reaping what they have sown.

BTW, I have no animosity towards Germany today.  But in WWII they needed to be beaten on, and beaten on hard until they surrendered.


Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Today is the Day!
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2002, 05:15:29 PM »
Heh I always thought it was Hitler with his generals who started the war. Well you always learn some new things from these boards.

Wabbit lets take another example in a smaller scale:
I'm sure you know Soviet-Union did bomb finnish cities first in winterwar '39-'40 when russia (Government; Not civilians. Don't mix these two when you're talking about countries ruled by a dictator) was the agressor. If I follow your way of thinking it seems that Finnish soldiers had all rights to kill every russian men, women and child they could?
Thank god (or what ever) they didn't think like you do.

Offline metronom

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 132
Today is the Day!
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2002, 05:28:24 PM »
"those that didnt should have gotten the hell out"

Yeager,
You make it too simple. You don't have to support or like the goverment and their ideology to love your country .Wantin to live in it, and if necessary to fight and die for it. Not for any  political idea or for a "leader"(God beware us from any leader). But  for your Fatherland.
In 1941 after Hitler invaded USSR, Stalin didn't talk about defending comunism. He called the russian people to defend Mother Russia. And they did.
Patriotism isn't always logical (what feeling is logical?) It's a part of your culture and some people like to deny it, but they can't.

A little story: I knew a former Yugoslavian who is from Serbia.  His statement was in the past years that he is cured from patriotism. "Stupid civil war for stupid patriotic amazinhunks" was his favorite comment as he was hiding from the MP's not wanting to fight in a civil war against other misguided fools. But after the first bombs in 1999 falled on Serbia he discovered that he is too a Patriot. Ok, someone would say he wasn't until bombs falled on his part of Ex-Yugoslavia. But the point is,  he detested the goverment and their ideas, but he loves his country.
Heck, nowhere is the air so fresh, the girls so beautiful and the sun so bright shining as in your homeland. And its worth to love and to fight for.
And yes, war sucks. But Humanity is too stupid and too proud to learn from his own failures.
There is no black-white world, only gray colours everythere...with tiny pink spotts :D

metro

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8542
Today is the Day!
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2002, 05:39:09 PM »
>Heh I always thought it was Hitler with his generals who
>started the war.

Well, you're wrong.  It was the German nation that started the war.  Sorry but a nations citizens are enevitablly held responsible for the actions of their leaders.  Its called accountability.  You better be very careful about who you allow to lead your country, and if someone gets into power who will lead you to ruin, then you better take them out quick.  Even if its the hard way.

Unless you're claiming that Hitler and his 20 odd top generals single handedly drove the tanks into Poland themselves.  It took hundreds of thousands of soldiers who were willing to follow those orders.  It took millions of others to man the war industries, millions still the run the trains, grow the food, make the clothing etc that kept the war industry going.  They cast their lot.  They lost the gamble.  

>dictator) was the agressor. If I follow your way of thinking it
>seems that Finnish soldiers had all rights to kill every russian
>men, women and child they could?

Hmmm good question.  Let me ask you one.  If the Finish general could have pressed a button and every Russian man, woman, and child dropped dead  wouldn't that have stopped the invasion?

I'm not saying exterminating the enemy is pleasent.  I'm saying that it can be effect in destroying their capacity to wage war.

I'm saying that if Germany lost 50-60% of its civillian population they could not have continued fighting.  


Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Today is the Day!
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2002, 05:40:00 PM »
Lets follow Wabbits way of thinking....
Quote

1939 - World War II begins. Germany invades Poland. Their blitzkrieg method of "lightening war" proves effective. Britain and France declare war on Germany. The Russians invade Finland. A bomb explodes in the Buergerbraukeller in Munich, shortly after Hitler has left the building where he was giving a speech.


So England and France did declare a war against Germany. Lets hear if AKWabbit says it was o.k when Luftwaffe bombed british towns and when Gestapo/SS/what ever did kill french villagers and send jews to gas chambers. After all they were french and thus earned to die when France declared a war against Germany.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Today is the Day!
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2002, 05:47:20 PM »
uups looks like Wabbit did agree  that it was o.k to kill civilians by shoting them in a neck or by giving 'em some gas.
Nice :)

Offline SirLoin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5707
Today is the Day!
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2002, 05:54:41 PM »
Come on people..Dresden...A populous living in mostly wooden housing,and very lightly defended by AA(It was one of the last civilian places that wasn't  leveled out by fire bombing ...)it was a place of refuge for MOSTLY women and children)..And targeted by "Bomber Harris" as more important than "Industrial carpet bombing"...   Harris was another Goering...He shoulda been tried after the war with the rest of them....
« Last Edit: March 02, 2002, 06:03:36 PM by SirLoin »
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8542
Today is the Day!
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2002, 05:54:47 PM »
I beleive that the most moral thing to do is to conclude the war as quickly as possible.

100 million are going to die, I'd rather it be all enemy.  

I think if taking out 100 million of the enemies population causes them to collapse and capitulate and saves several million Allies then that is a bargin in my opinion.  Especially if they are citizens oft he country that started the whole dame thing.


Reap the whirlwind.



Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Today is the Day!
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2002, 05:59:42 PM »
Wabbit don't be shy, just shout it out loud "War is hell; It's okay to kill civilians!"
:D

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Today is the Day!
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2002, 06:05:58 PM »
btw Wabbit what did you think when those planes did hit the WTC towers?
If I did understand it correct Al-Quaida and other terrorist groups were in a war against U.S so guess there is nothing wrong in the picture when they attacked against civilian targets like WTC?

Offline SirLoin

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5707
Today is the Day!
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2002, 06:07:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
What is the difference between these:
- Gestapo with help from SS shoots 100 french villagers
- RAF and 8th AF kills 100000-250000 in a bomb-raid
- Gestapo w/SS gives some Zyklon-B to 6 million jews

similarities: in all cases most of victims were innocent and couldn't defend themselves. If I would believe in heaven and hell I would be sure every one of those killers would burn in hell.



Very good point Staga..
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8542
Today is the Day!
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2002, 06:08:15 PM »
>Wabbit don't be shy, just shout it out loud "War is hell; It's
>okay to kill civilians!"

War IS Hell.  

And it IS ok to kill ANYONE who is contributing ANYTHING to the enemies ability to continue killing your people.  


If more of them end up dying than your guys by the time its over, then thats fine by me.  Better than if it were reversed.  


If at ANY time they wish to stop dying, they need only unconditionally surrender.  If they chose not to, then they choose to accept their fate.


Can I make it any plainer?


Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Today is the Day!
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2002, 06:14:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWabbit

War IS Hell.  

And it IS ok to kill ANYONE who is contributing ANYTHING to the enemies ability to continue killing your people.  
 


So you agree it was acceptable way of warfare when those planes did hit those towers too?

Offline Nashwan

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1864
Today is the Day!
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2002, 06:16:43 PM »
Quote
There was alot of controversity about bombing a city that had no military value.

Dresden had a population of around 650,000.

At a time when almost the entire German economy was given over to war production, and Germany had taken 7.5 million slaves to work in German factories, why was Dresden exempt from participating in the war effort? Why were the people of Dresden allowed to laze around in idleness, when all other Germans were doing their bit?

Quote
Note: I heard a rumor that the British General who decided to bomb Dresden picked Dresden because he had dated a German girl from this city and she dumped him.

Almost too sill to reply to, but if that was the case, wouldn't Dresden have been one of Harris's first raids? I mean, return later when the bombers were better, but make it one of your first raids as well.

Quote
I was under the impression that Dresden was revenge for Conventry. Churchhill new Coventry was going to be hit via Enigma. But could not act on the info, as it would have been damn suspicous to the Germans, and would have possibly lead to them finding out that Enigma had been broken. This apparently really pissed off Churchhill and he ordered the firebombings.

Churchill didn't know Coventry was going to be bombed. RV Jones says in his autobiography that Enigma messages had been intercepted detailing a target called "Korn", but not what that codename applied to, or when the attack would be carried out.
Seperate instructions led them to believe a large raid was scheduled for that night, but they had a total of 5 or 6 possible locations, and they believed London was the most likely target.

Britain carried on with attempts to bomb German factories and military targets at night into late 41, before switching to area attacks, because they were having no success with precision attacks, and because they were aware how much damage the Luftwaffe's attacks had caused.

Quote
Whoever had the final word for Dresden should have been put on trial for Crimes Against Humanity. Plain and simple.

No Germans were tried for similar attacks, for example the Luftwaffe's Blit on London killed close to 40,000, total attacks on the UK killed more than 60,000.
No US commanders were tried for attacks on Japanese cities, for example a raid on Tokyo killed more than 100,000 in one night, still recognized as the largest for a single raid, atomic or not.

Quote

What is the difference between these:
- Gestapo with help from SS shoots 100 french villagers
- RAF and 8th AF kills 100000-250000 in a bomb-raid
- Gestapo w/SS gives some Zyklon-B to 6 million jews

similarities: in all cases most of victims were innocent and couldn't defend themselves. If I would believe in heaven and hell I would be sure every one of those killers would burn in hell.

1 and 3 are carried out on civillians who were not aiding and abetting the enemy, who were in the care of the military that murdered them, and who could have helped the Germans if they had not been murdered for being racially inferior.
2 was carried out in an operation against an enemy city, that was actively engaged in the enemy's war effort, in a country that was not just still fighting, but hurrying along with it['s policy of genocide against Jews and other untermensch.

The rules and conduct of the war at the time banned executing hostages and group reprisals (the French villagers), banned the wholesale slaughter of enemy civillians (all the Jews from Poland, Russia and all the countries overrun by the Germans) but said nothing about attacking enemy cities.

As another example of "war is hell", consider Leningrad, where over 600,000 civilians died during the siege. That's more than died in Germany from all allied bombing.

A quote from Bomber Harris:

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a dozen other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind."

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8542
Today is the Day!
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2002, 06:17:48 PM »
>btw Wabbit what did you think when those planes did hit the
>WTC towers?


I thought...


1.   Hmmm these guys are our enemy.

2.  We should attack and kill our enemy and anyone who is assisting them in any way whatsoever.

3.  We should continue step 2 until all Al-Quaida and anyone supporting them are dead,     Or...

4. Until those that survive, completely, and utterly, unconditionally surrender to us.


(shrug)  Why is this so confusing to you?


Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.