Author Topic: Today is the Day?  (Read 1578 times)

Offline Wardog

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« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2002, 09:25:23 PM »
Staga..

Pull that cork outa your head. Fire storms ripped through London (a non military target) years before Dresden was hit. And it was continually targeted. Germany was comminting genocide to millions upon millions of people, this bothers me, not Dresden..

Germany wanted to rule the world, and got beat down. Germany is at fault for there own downfall, keep that in mind.

Dog out..

Offline Staga

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« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2002, 09:41:48 PM »
My words to Wabbit-> "If you say bombings of Dresden were acceptable then you should also admit attacks against WTC were also ok."
Because Wabbit hasn't commented this I belive he agrees with that sentence.

We could also continue this discussion with words like Sudan, medical plant, Libya, Tripoli, Reagan and Benghazi.
Looks like Al-Quaida did use same methods against U.S that U.S did use against those countries. You reap what you sow ;)

Nashwan how do you know israels don't already have camps like those in nazi-germany? They already have "concentration camps" or "ghettoes" just like nazies had (this time refugee camps). After all most of horrors nazies did came to the "day light" after the war. Wonder what else than nuclear laboratories you could find from Negev desert....

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2002, 09:51:11 PM »
Lol fergetit wardog,  that head is way too far up his bellybutton to reach that cork.

Did a litle research this afternoon.  I had forgotten how closely tied Finland was with Nazi Germany.  

I guess he has his own "particular" point of view.  

Streak is right tho.  Even tho Hitler was voted into office by a majority of the population, byt the time of the occupation you couldn't find a single German who admitted they had voted for him.  

Come to think of it, its hard to find Americans who will admit they voted for Clinton.  Lol.

Wab
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Offline Staga

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« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2002, 10:26:18 PM »
I'm kinda disappointed how easy target Wabbit was. That was like stealing a candy from a retard teenager :D

Quote

Did a litle research this afternoon. I had forgotten how closely tied Finland was with Nazi Germany.
I guess he has his own "particular" point of view.


Heh when I saw that it made me smile 'cause then I knew you run out of arguments and lowered this verbal fight to mud level. Nice try thought ;)

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2002, 10:55:44 PM »
>Heh when I saw that it made me smile 'cause then I knew you
>run out of arguments and lowered this verbal fight to mud level.
>Nice try thought.

Naw, I'm just trying to understand your "particular" point of view.  That was 50 years ago and you're certainly not responsible for any "collaboration" that might have gone on.  People today aren't responsible for their ancestors actions.  Thats why I hold no grudge agianst modern Germany.  But it does give me a reference point to understand where you're coming from.  Its not intended as any kind of "mud".  

At least not anymore than your suggestion of possible Isreali death camps hidden in the Negev desert. :rolleyes:  

I am curious tho... oh nevermind. :cool: I guess everyone has their own "particular" point of view.


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Wab
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Offline Staga

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« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2002, 11:16:42 PM »
My point of view? I thought it would be clear already...
There shouldn't be any reason to make intentionally killing of innocent people acceptable in a war and IMHO everyone, axis or allies, should be judged in a court and if proved guilty he/she should spend his sorry life in a prison.
You know, crimes against humanity.

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2002, 11:22:41 PM »
>There shouldn't be any reason to make intentionally killing of
>innocent people acceptable in a war


Hmmm  The trick is who's innocent.  

I think we would both agree soldiers are legitamate targets.  

What about those who are working in arms factories producing weapons?

Well?


Wab
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2002, 11:33:08 PM »
The fins were Nazi collaborators lol...............wtf :rolleyes:

Hell most of europe were Nazi collaborators by that logic........

The fact is terror bombing didnt end the war It took hitlers death for that to happen.

The Germans on numerous occassions sought peace with the west which was rightly rejected.

They would and could not accept an unconditional surrender after yalta or the release of morgenthau plan.

It can be argued that the call for unconditional surrender actually prolonged the war and cost lives on all sides.

Hitler and the german people were unwilling to allow the soviets half of europe and of germany. The west was content to allow the russians to do the war winning.

edit
there were no arms factories in dresden. Dresden was full of refugees running from the russians.........

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2002, 11:41:22 PM »
Ah.. the handfull of Germans that started WW2 are to blame.  Yep.. those few measely bastards.  You know.. that handfull of Germans that marched across Europe taking over the entire southern portion.  That handfull of Germans that marched into Northern Africa... you know... those few naughty ones.

When a country goes to war... takes it to an entire continent... it had better be prepared for reprisals.

The best way to avoid civilian casualties is to avoid starting wars.

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Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2002, 11:44:28 PM »
>The fins were Nazi collaborators lol...............wtf  

Gee golly Wotan.  I'm sorry.  I'm just a poor dumb country wabbit.  Never been out past the carrot patch.  I'm not used to these fancy terms.  Maybe I got it wrong.  

They seemed to have sent units to serve under the German army in the invasion of Russia.  

There were Finnish Waffen-SS units.  


Maybe "collaboration" isn't the right term.  

"Co-Belligerent"?  Help me out here.  Whats the proper term?


regards,
Wab
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Offline Wotan

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« Reply #55 on: March 02, 2002, 11:58:17 PM »
the Fins were in a much tougher position.......

They were attacked by Russia abandoned by the west and left no other course then accept defeat or fight back.

The fins never were an aggressor nation. They accepted help from the only nation willing to give it. Germany.. once the Soviet threat was removed they broke ties with Germany.

We worked side by side with the other great evil the world has produced.........stalin does that make us responsible for the acts of terror the Soviets committed?

There were Finish volunteeers that served in the SS there were freiwilligen korps of ss from many Nations even those occupied by force.

That neither classifies them as co-belligerents or collaborators.

I never said anything  about you personally but your comment about finnish collaborators is a bit much.........

I think anyone would agree with that
« Last Edit: March 03, 2002, 12:14:14 AM by Wotan »

Offline streakeagle

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« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2002, 12:00:32 AM »
I wasn't dodging the question, those simply were not the choices available.

If we kind find a choice that results in total defeat of our enemies for no loss to ourselves, then that is obviously the right choice.

But losses cannot be measured just by the immediate body counts. The treatment of defeated Germans ultimately led to more Americans dying... if the world had not blamed and punished Germany for WW1, maybe several million more people would not have died for nothing fighting WW2.

If we use methods to defeat our enemies which only inspire more enemies, have we really won?

Since you are making up hypothetical choices we didn't have, I would rather add and pick a choice you didn't list. The best solution would be one where Germany never empowered Hitler and would reach its current economic status without having started WW2, as opposed to waiting for Hitler to rise to justify slaughtering thousands or millions of Germans.

Even with hindsight, the right answer can never be determined because we only know with any certainty the history that occurred when an exact pattern of decisions was made in an exact set of circumstances. That doesn't stop us from trying to generalize and apply lessons learned to the future. But far too often people (myself included) can find a historical situation with some vague similarity that will justify whatever opinion they happen to have (great for BBS argument, but almost worthless for actual decision making). As with the weather, the slightest change in any of the variables will cause dramatic unpredictable differences compared to past trends for otherwise similar conditions.

Ironically, history repeats itself not because we forget what happened in the past, but because we remember it. Most actions taken by both people as individuals and as nations are responses to past stimulus. If everyone had forgotten about what happened during WW1, the events between 1920 and 1939 would be entirely different. If the Arabs and Israelis couldn't remember how all the people that have been killed while fighting over the years, maybe they wouldn't be fighting at all.
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Offline Staga

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« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2002, 12:14:40 AM »
Read and learn...
http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/ss-finnisches.htm and http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/index.htm

Here those men were also known as pawn- or mortgage bataillon because AFAIR it was Hitlers proposal to tie Finland to Germany by keeping those men almost as a hostage. All men had to be free willing to leave Finland and join to those troops.

Is there anything else I can help you with, Wabbit?

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2002, 12:32:22 AM »
Well, shucks, there ya go Wotan.  Jus shows ya were 6 years of skoolin will get ya.
They didn’t have a division.  Only a batallian that served under the Wiking Div. Waffen SS.  While to their credit, they refused the oath of  alliegence directly to Hitler,  they weren’t force into service at gun point.  It was with the full support of the Finnish goverment.  


http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/

http://www.ipmsfinland.org/artikkelit/jarilievonen_drittenordland.php

http://www.apali.fi/Books/SS-Division/www.ss-division.html

http://members.tripod.com/~Sturmvogel/ss-finn.html

http://www.feldgrau.com/finland.html

http://www.angelraybooks.com/books/wiking/0003wd.htm

http://www.forces70.freeserve.co.uk/Waffen%20SS%20Text+Images/5th%20SS.htm

http://www.wssob.com/000batfin.html

http://www.skalman.nu/third-reich/ss-finnisches.htm

http://www.jjfpub.mb.ca/soldiers.htm

>The fins never were an aggressor nation.

Never said they were.  But they served the German war machine.  Slice it anyway you want.  But for two years they wore those double lightning bars by choice.  Soooo not collaborator, not co-belligerents….pals?


Regards,
Wab
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Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2002, 12:37:24 AM »
Streak,

Stop acting like a politician.

Just answer the question even if it is totally hypothetical.

Given the two choice I presented (assuming there were no others) which would you have chosen if you were in command of the allied war effort?


Its a simple question, you don't have to wiggle so hard.


Wab
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