Author Topic: Today is the Day?  (Read 1576 times)

Offline Sandman

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« on: March 02, 2002, 10:29:46 AM »
57 years ago (March 2 ,1945), the 8th Air Force dropped bombs on Dresden. :confused:
« Last Edit: March 02, 2002, 11:29:22 AM by Sandman »
sand

Offline fdiron

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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2002, 10:36:27 AM »
There was alot of controversity about bombing a city that had no military value.  I believe 40,000 civilians died.  Probably a pretty horrible death.  I am not real sure if bombing Dresden shortened the war, but the loss of so many German civilians probably hampered the war effort.

Note:  I heard a rumor that the British General who decided to bomb Dresden picked Dresden because he had dated a German girl from this city and she dumped him.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2002, 10:39:15 AM »
Hmmm... didn't the RAF hit Dresden in February?
sand

Offline Staga

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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2002, 10:50:30 AM »
Quote

One tactic used by the Royal Air Force and the United States Army Air Force was the creation of firestorms. This was achieved by dropping incendiary bombs, filled with highly combustible chemicals such as magnesium, phosphorus or petroleum jelly (napalm), in clusters over a specific target. After the area caught fire, the air above the bombed area, become extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from the outside and people were sucked into the fire.
In 1945, Arthur Harris decided to create a firestorm in the medieval city of Dresden. He considered it a good target as it had not been attacked during the war and was virtually undefended by anti-aircraft guns. The population of the city was now far greater than the normal 650,000 due to the large numbers of refugees fleeing from the advancing Red Army.

On the 13th February 1945, 773 Avro Lancasters bombed Dresden. During the next two days the USAAF sent over 527 heavy bombers to follow up the RAF attack. Dresden was nearly totally destroyed. As a result of the firestorm it was afterwards impossible to count the number of victims. Recent research suggest that 135,000 were killed but some German sources have argued that it was over 250,000. Whatever the figure, it was probably greater than the 51,509 British civilians killed by the Luftwaffe during the whole of the Second World War and the 70,000 immediate deaths at Hiroshima after the dropping of the first atom bomb on 6th August 1945.


http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm

Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2002, 11:17:01 AM »
At the end of the war,Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris was denied peerage(the title of Duke,Marquees,Earl,Viscount or Baron) given to all other major British commanders because of his terror tactics.

His aircrews were also denied a Distinctive Campaign Medal of their own because of this raid(and others..Hamburg..30,000 dead)

This is especially pathetic because they used the "Break the will of the people to win the war" excuse knowing full well from the Battle of Britain,bombing the civilians only strengthens their resolve to resist.
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2002, 11:52:00 AM »
I was under the impression that Dresden was revenge for Conventry.  Churchhill new Coventry was going to be hit via Enigma.  But could not act on the info, as it would have been damn suspicous to the Germans, and would have possibly lead to them finding out that Enigma had been broken.  This apparently really pissed off Churchhill and he ordered the firebombings.

Offline Animal

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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2002, 12:59:30 PM »
Whoever had the final word for Dresden should have been put on trial for Crimes Against Humanity. Plain and simple.

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2002, 01:09:17 PM »
>they used the "Break the will of the people to win the war"
>excuse


(Shrug)  War is Hell.  The sure enjoyed it enough when they were blitzkrieging through Poland and France.  I'm sure they enjoyed it less when their cities were being reduced to ashes.  Reap the whirlwind  mutha plowa.

Everything is a military  target as far as I'm concerned.  Children grow up to be soldiers.  Women are production facilities for more children.  Every citizen assists the war effort in some small way.  Serves at a hospital.  Serves as home guard.  Collects metal and rubber scraps.  Grows food that is eventually sent to soldiers.  Makes shoes that are worn by factory workers who make weapons that are sent to soldiers.  If nothing else they are manpower reserves.  If you killed every living thing in the military production targets they would draw from the remaining cities.  Its just like bombing fuel reserves, you’re destroying manpower reserves.  If you look hard enough you can trace every citizen to some contribution to the war effort.  Therefore every citizen is a potential target.  

Can bombing break the will of a people to fight?  I think the point is moot.  Given sufficient firepower, there can only be two possible conclusions:
1.   The will of the enemy is broken and they sue for peace
2.   All life in the target country is eliminated
Either way, with sufficient ordinance, the problem is solved.  Its simply a matter of volume of destruction.  With sufficient destructive power you can guarantee one of the above conclusions.

The   A-Bomb sure did wonders to break the Japanese will to fight.  I think old Harris just didn’t have the right tools.

Regards,
Wab
« Last Edit: March 02, 2002, 01:13:26 PM by AKWabbit »
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Offline mrfish

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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2002, 01:09:31 PM »
except, animal, that would set a precedent whose net could be cast over every country that has been in a war this century.

war for the most part, is gonna be 'total war'.

its hard to try someone for crimes against mankind when they are exhibiting one of the defining characteristics of mankind.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2002, 01:11:23 PM »
I have plenty books on dresden Harris lied  about its importance and everything really surrounding Thunderclap.

Individaul bomber crews were told that dresden was a viable target with all sorts of varying excuses. Alot of them also expressed concern.

If harris were Axis he would of been executed. The fact that he was denied peerage is telling in of of its self considering the magnitude of Nazi war crimes discovered after the war.

Dresden wasnt the only city to to be fire bombed

29 August 1944 Bremerhaven 200 bomber dropped 420,000 thermite incendiaries. Prior to the drop recon photos showed a "buit up area" (buildings and the like) of 375 acres. After thet showed 297 acres had been destroyed.

They later refined this type of attack on a raid on Darmstadt of 11 sept 1944. 78% of the center center was destroyed. 70,000 of the cities 115,000 were made homeless. There were only 5 buildings left in the cities old town. estimated casualties were 8,500 died in the 45 min raid.

Then came Brunswick 14 october 1944.

The came operation Thunderclap 13 through 15 February 1945.

You can do your own research but I have plenty of info. There were follow up raids to dresden but they mostly just stirred up the ashes. Theres a good eye witness account of the attck from in dresden by Eva Beyer a 17 year old red cross worker.

Harris although he did not start the area bombing believed that by the systematic destruction of large urban areas would in itself lead to victory.

He referred to the raids against oil refineries and transport targets during july and september 1944 as "panaceas" even though they crippled german oil production. Even though only 11% of bomber commands forces were used in these raids.

In november 1 1944 harris sent a norte to Air Chief Marshall Portal  

Quote
In the past 18 months Bomber Command has virtually destroyed 45 out of the leading 60 German cities. Inspite of the invasion diversions (reference to the The Transportation Plan in which allied bombers hit rail networks in france and western germany. Harris opposed this as well) we have managed to keep up and even extend our average of two and a half cities devastated a month  . . . There are not many industrial centers of population now left intact. Are we going to abandon this vast task, which the Germans themselves have long admitted to be their worst headache, just as it nears completion.


Again look it up for yourself. Like I said I have quotes from bomber pilots who were told all sorts of reasons why dresden would be bombed. They needed no reason they were ordered too.

My grand mother grew up in conventry. My Mother was born in England.

I have pictures of the Cathedral there burning and various other Axis bomber destruction. She was 16 at the time.

Offline oboe

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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2002, 02:19:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKWabbit
Everything is a military  target as far as I'm concerned.  Children grow up to be soldiers.  Women are production facilities for more children.  Every citizen assists the war effort in some small way.  Serves at a hospital.  Serves as home guard.  Collects metal and rubber scraps.  Grows food that is eventually sent to soldiers.  Makes shoes that are worn by factory workers who make weapons that are sent to soldiers.  If nothing else they are manpower reserves.  If you killed every living thing in the military production targets they would draw from the remaining cities.  Its just like bombing fuel reserves, you’re destroying manpower reserves.  If you look hard enough you can trace every citizen to some contribution to the war effort.  Therefore every citizen is a potential target.  
Wab


Good God, man.   I sincerely hope you never grow up to be in charge of anything military with that attitude.

Offline CptTrips

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« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2002, 03:11:30 PM »
>Good God, man. I sincerely hope you never grow up to be in
>charge of anything military with that attitude.

(shrug)

Logic can be brutal and war itself is already an immoral act.  The only thing more immoral in my opinion is misplaced angst and half measures.  There is no rational way to deney that if every living person in Germany was wiped out that the war could not have continued.  

Of course at any point if they've had enough they simple have to unconditionally surrender and it would stop.  

What I find immoral is when leadership lacks the clarity of vision and willingness to do what is necessary, whatever is necessary, to conclude the war in the shortest possible amount of time.

We may not have had the bomb till late '45, but we could have could have begun dusting them with powdered, aerosolized plutonium years earlier.  The effect would have been comparable, pherhaps even more lethal.

 I doubt Germany could have sustained 150-200 million civillian casualties and still been able to continue hostilities.  It would simply become impossible.  How much more moral would it have been to end the war in ’43?  

If you could have saved the lives of 5 million Allied military and civillians by sacrificing 100 million of the enemy, would you do it?  I would.  Without hesitation.  

(shrug)  War is Hell.  That’s why it should be avoided.

Regards,
Wab
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Offline Yeager

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« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2002, 03:45:52 PM »
More dresden crap?

Fek me.  

Wars suck.  If you dont want to kill or be killed then dont make war on other people.  If you DO want to kill be damned well prepared to get killed.  The german people supported that war (those that didnt should have gotten the hell out) and if german kids and women get killed then the german man in uniform is strictly to blame as are the so called "civilians" working in war indistries as well as farmers growing food and anyone doing anything that could support the german military.

Not some allied war planner.

No sympathy or sorrow from me.  Im just damned glad the allies won.
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Offline Staga

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« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2002, 04:42:17 PM »
What is the difference between these:
- Gestapo with help from SS shoots 100 french villagers
- RAF and 8th AF kills 100000-250000 in a bomb-raid
- Gestapo w/SS gives some Zyklon-B to 6 million jews

similarities: in all cases most of victims were innocent and couldn't defend themselves. If I would believe in heaven and hell I would be sure every one of those killers would burn in hell.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2002, 04:49:26 PM »
Yeager do you think it was acceptable for nazies to kill those jews?
What about when Legion Condor bombed watermelon out of Guernica ?

Where do you draw the line which was acceptable and which was not?

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Bombing of Guernica

Republican troops guarded the capital city of the Basque region, Guernica while 3000 Nationalist troops lay siege to the city. Nearby, in the town of Burgos, a number of Luftwaffe bombers (an estimated 30) were each loaded with 550 pounds of bombs each. Led by Lt. Rudolf von Moreau, an experienced ace of the German Air Force, the bombers had orders for Hitler to bomb the city of Guernica. There were no military targets in the town except a weapons factory outside of town. Their target was a small bridge, the only one into town, that the Socialists supposedly would cross.

On April 26, 1937, the bombers left their base in Burgos and flew to Guernica. Moreau was a head of the group. He flew over Guernica on a reconnaissance mission. The townspeople were alarmed but the local pastor quenched their fears. The church bells were rung and the people hid in dugouts. Moreau circled the city and on his next run, he showered the city with bombs and grenades. From there, the other planes took several attacks on the city, destroying the central part of the city.

The damage on the city was extensive. After a few hours of bombing, the city was left in ruins. One of the first buildings hit was a shelter for wounded militiamen. Large 1000 pound explosives killed refugees hiding in the dugouts. Fleeing peasants were either killed by explosives or by machine guns from the planes. Herds of livestock were eliminated. 721 structures were destroyed. The exact number killed is not known although 45 people died in the hospitable. Many more were killed throughout the bombing.

When the smoke cleared three days after the attack, the bridge and the weapons factory were still intact. The officers were told to call the attack a "mistake". Nationalists were told by the Germans that "Red" extremists were responsible for the catastrophe. News of the bombing spread throughout the outraged world. Picasso had a strong reaction to the event. Guernica was different from other bombings because it was a peaceful city that had no reason to be bombed. Motives for the bombing are still questionable. From captured telegrams between Hitler and Wolfram von Richthofen, the German leader of the operation, the bombing was supposed to scare refugees in nearby Bilbao.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2002, 04:54:00 PM by Staga »