Author Topic: US Steel Tariffs  (Read 1495 times)

Offline gavor

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
      • http://users.senet.com.au/~shanga
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2002, 08:18:02 PM »
Thats a good question Toad but i think there are two points there.

One is that there probably is a domestic market in the US for other vital industries like defence. I'd say there will always be a domestic market, but that they are trying to sustain too big a market right now. Second is that countries like Australia and the UK will always be here to help you out if you urgently needed steel. I dont think we'd hold the steel ransom cos you're arrogant ;). We like you too much.

Offline fd ski

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1531
      • http://www.northotwing.com/wing/
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2002, 08:32:58 PM »
yes, let's put the "defence steel defence defensive emergency plan" into effect.

"We came to recieve the information that Al-queda and taliban are planning to STEAL ALL THE STEEL from USA !!! We have to protect outselves against such possibility by going against the very principals we enforce on everyone else. Sorry for inconvinience.

Next week timber industry which is oh so vital to national defence will get to put up tariffs against canadian wood !!! ( oh wait, we already did that !!! )

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2002, 08:47:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by fd ski
Next week timber industry which is oh so vital to national defence will get to put up tariffs against canadian wood !!! ( oh wait, we already did that !!! )


Tell me about it.:rolleyes:

It hypocracy pure and simple.  Tell me again how Dubya isn't doing this for big business.  Cripes, I KNOW you guys aren't that simple minded.

Can the US compete on the world market or not?  

What happend to American's screaming about keeping Government out of Business....sheeesh.

Offline gavor

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
      • http://users.senet.com.au/~shanga
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2002, 08:59:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn



Can the US compete on the world market or not?  



Thats a good question. The things they do with tariffs and quotas sends the message that they can't. Obviously this can't be true? :confused:

Offline weazel

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1471
Whos clueless?
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2002, 09:03:46 PM »
You planning on buying a new car, appliances, or anything that requires a large amount of steel soon funked?

I'm SURE you won't mind paying a higher price for them will you?

The shrubs a slack jawed idiot, the biggest part of him ran down  Barbaras leg.

Offline ygsmilo

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 897
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2002, 09:37:19 PM »
Its very simple folks,,,,look at the value of the US Dollar vrs the other countrys currency-----

The world currency is the US Dollar but when the local currency is worth 2 x or more it is easy to see how foreign products can be produced and sold vrs a US product.

What is interesting is how the world values thier sovereign interests but invest in T-Bills and T-Bonds.

Just a thought.

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2002, 09:39:12 PM »
I'd HAPPILY pay more for something which uses American steel in it.  US steel is invariably of higher quality than Asian or Mexican steel.

Besides, what do you suppose will happen once those foreign companies finally drive all the domestic compaines out of business?  That's right, they'll charge more (for their crappy inferior product).  OPEC certainly isn't giving us any huge break on gasoline!  Indeed, OPEC has been known to simply halt sales to us whenever they feel like it--why would we want this sort of vulnerability in ANOTHER vital product?  

Sorry to the free-trade advocates, but the US government's main concern is NOT in improving the lives of people in third-world countries.  The US government needs to look out for its own citizens.   If this is indeed a case of Bush cozying up to a big business, that's FINE--regardless of motive it's preserving American jobs and keeping us from becomming dependent on the whims of other nations.  In this case, our government is protecting an important domestic industry from foreign price undercutting.  This is what the government is there for.  

Too bad they didn't do this 10 years ago.

J_A_B

Offline Seeker

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2653
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2002, 10:04:08 PM »
"I support these tariffs. The US steel industry is simply unable to compete with foreign competition that can pay its workers 50 cents an hour or less."

Must be all those state funded Socialist inspired welfare, health, education and retirement benefits that's forcing the American Worker fron taking his place amongst the economicaly productive workers of the world.

We shouldn't worry, they'll see it doesn't pay.

Offline gavor

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
      • http://users.senet.com.au/~shanga
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2002, 10:07:51 PM »
Quote
I'd HAPPILY pay more for something which uses American steel in it. US steel is invariably of higher quality than Asian or Mexican steel.


What about when those higher costs flow down to other things, as they eventually will. Will you be happier to pay more for other products that had to pay more for their machinery that was made using expensive US steel? How do you know its of a higher quality? Did you do studies? Are you saying Australian steel is inferior and crap? If US steel is so much better than everyone elses then why isnt it selling?


Quote
Sorry to the free-trade advocates, but the US government's main concern is NOT in improving the lives of people in third-world countries. The US government needs to look out for its own citizens.  


I thought the US was the biggest free trade advocate around. Wheres the logic in this? Government should stay out of business, especially if they're trumpeting about free trade.

Quote
If this is indeed a case of Bush cozying up to a big business, that's FINE--regardless of motive it's preserving American jobs and keeping us from becomming dependent on the whims of other nations.


You won't be at the whim of others, there are plenty of steel producing nations that can offer you a high quality product. Its called trade and it involves negotiations. If one nation is asking too much, buy somewhere else. I find the argument that you should protect your own and not worry about other nations to be pretty bloody arrogant and narrow minded. Last i looked this was the 21st century and we were all trying to work together.

Quote
In this case, our government is protecting an important domestic industry from foreign price undercutting. This is what the government is there for.

Maybe you think its an important domestic business but if it needs to be protected then its not as good as you think. If it can't compete anymore perhaps they should try changing.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2002, 10:21:34 PM by gavor »

Offline Thrawn

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2002, 10:15:02 PM »
I just don't get it, I thought the US was all about capitalism.  

The US pays their workers more, gotcha.  The US also produces a fantastic grade of steel, I'm still following you.  If the steel is good then it will be bought at a higher price then crap steel.  And the US steel companies can afford to pay higher wages.  

But if they can't the government steps in and bails them out?  Okay I have know problems with this from a Canadian stand point, as we've bailed out Bombardier about a billion times.  But we are more socialist than the US.

I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me how the US can be so very capitalist when it suits them, but then have the government bailout big business, when markets forces go against them.  No sarcasm here.

Offline J_A_B

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3012
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2002, 10:59:23 PM »
Unfortunately business doesn't usually care about quality.  They buy the crappy Asian/Mexican steel because they have to to compete with the other guys.  How it works out is most massive construction projects are performed by the lowest bidder (who bids lowest because he uses the cheapest material), so quality suffers.  It's the great irony of how the things we rely on daily--bridges, buildings, signs and almost our entire infastructure--are built by the lowest bidder.

As a result of the way contracts are awarded, large scale steel companies (like say LTV) cannot really use quality as a means of selling their product.  This works for small-time mills but not for major producers.  What it boils down to is American companies that pay a living wage and hence have high fixed costs cannot compete with foreign companies who don't need to pay their workers so much.  Should the US steel industry be allowed to collapse simply because the standard of living in other countries is so much lower?  

How can you call it competition when one side has an impossibly large advantage?

Also, the argument that using higher-priced steel will result in goods costing more is false.  Goods such as cars are priced based on what the market will pay for them, NOT based on how much they cost to build.   GMC,  for example, actually loses money on most of its small cars simply because they can't sell them at a profitable price (this is why automakers love SUV's, they use old technology and yet people pay a lot for them).  Remember, pricing is based on what the customer will pay, not on how much it costs you to build the goods (another example is soda pop, it costs only about a nickel a can to make yet retails for 50 cents or more because that's what people are willing to pay).  Companies won't be able to just raise their prices because their costs increased slightly (and it IS only a slight difference in the final cost) because the market won't bear it.

The main effect that this tariff might have is slightly lower profit margins for steel-using industries; consumer prices shouldn't be seriously affected and the overall economic effect on profitability of steel-using industries will be more than outweighed by the fact that the remaining domestic steel companies won't fold up.

Lastly, I agree that the US government is being hypocritical here.   My opinion is globalization is the mistake and protection of American assets is the best course of action.  Naturally I'd expect residents of other countries to have exactly the opposite opinion, and I hold no grudge for it.  Everyone wants what's best for their country.

J_A_B

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2002, 11:00:11 PM »
J_A_B,

One just said that Mexico is in some free trade agreement with US...

Did you forget europe and australia?
Those are not having cheap work power or being third world countries.

Offline Sandman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17620
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2002, 11:15:03 PM »
Europe and Australia are not part of NAFTA.
sand

Offline gavor

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 400
      • http://users.senet.com.au/~shanga
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2002, 11:24:25 PM »
Thats not the point. J_A_B is saying all other countries who produce steel are third world, have a lower standard of living and dont pay their workers enough. Well I say bollocks to that! Since when has Australia been 'Third World'! Or Europe! How can you come out and say our steel is crap!? If you can't compete, you can't compete, don't make excuses. Don't use Mexico as an example either. Once again, they didnt have the tariffs imposed so Mexican steel will be flowing over your borders just as freely.

Off topic a bit, i've always found it funny that our great armed forces always use equipment that came from the cheapest source.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
US Steel Tariffs
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2002, 11:49:38 PM »
Gavor, the Aussie tariff on imported automobiles is at 15% isn't it? What's the matter, afraid to compete?  ;)


Now which country was it that is 100% totally free trade? I forgot already.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!