P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?

[Spatula]

Andy, i mentioned that range as the range at which you are able to drop them.  I hardly ever use them, i was just making the observation that you can. They do seem to help with drag a little bit. Some people swear by it, but i tend to avoid any extended turning. If you have to use em, they do make a difference from 200-300 IMO - allthough i have no empirical data to verify that claim.

[Lephturn]

Just FYI, if you are going faster than the max speed for a given flap setting, you will not be able to deploy that flap setting.  If you have deployed say 1 notch of flap and you reach the speed limit for that flap setting, the flaps will automatically retract.  This is an issue you should be aware of, as in some planes like the P-38 having the flaps retract at a critical time can result in a spin.

Hmmmm.  I think there needs to be an article about flaps in AH.  I'll have to put that on my "to do" list.  I'm going to think of some basic tests to do, and we'll see if I can get some help from folks on this forum so we can get all the planes tested for deploy speed limits for various flap settings.

Would flap speed limitations change with altitude?  It seems likely they would.... that might complicate things a bit.

[Andy Bush]

Lephturn

>>Would flap speed limitations change with altitude?<<

Definitely. Limiting speeds are normally given in indicated airspeed (IAS). In some aircraft, the structural/aerodynamic design is such that mach number becomes an issue above a certain altitude. That mach number then becomes the limit. The operating manual would probably give the limitation as "IAS/mach #" rather than specify an altitude.

I sent you an e-mail about a flap article. My address is alfakilo@charter.net.

Andy

[Dingy]

Originally posted by batdog
Maybe your not using ENOUGH flaps when turning.... ?


xBAT

Well I never use more that 1 notch during a turn fite but then again, unless its with a Dora or La7/5, I will usually not pursue an extended turnfight.   Pull that flap in, nose down and regain E to extend.

-Ding

[Dingy]

Originally posted by Andy Bush
Spatula

If I use flaps, I expect to see something improve. What improvement in  performance do you see when using flaps at these speeds (250-390)?

Maybe HiTech or someone could answer this also. What performance increases are to be expected from using flaps in AH?

Andy

Personally, I dont see any.  When you are this fast, its easy to pull 6Gs which is right on the blackout point.  I only use flaps to get that last amount of lead I need when below 250 as I go for that killing shot.

-Ding

[Lephturn]

I use flaps in the Jug in a similar fashion... I use them to get the lead I need to make the shot, burning the E advantage I have been carefully working during the fight.

I also use flaps if I want to slow down to try and force an overshoot, and I'll use a notch or two of flaps to get "over the top" in a vertical move that I don't quite have the speed to complete otherwise.  Generally, I never put flaps out and leave them out simply because the additional drag isn't really "worth it".

Now on the odd occasion that I end up turnfighting on the deck in a sustained turning battle with my D-11 (heh.. happens more than you think) I'll often use one or two notches, but I constantly play around with them... trying to keep them retracted as much as possible to conserve E, then popping a couple of notches and burning E for a shot.

[Swoop]

Just to clarify something here, I'll only consider using flaps when against something that doesnt have a great turning advantage over the P51......like for example, another P51.

If I'm fast I wont be thinking about a turn fight either, I'll be ZnBing.  The trouble starts when there's no other cons around so I've gotton over eager and dropped into a turn fight......which will sometimes degenerate into a slow turning fight.  Now I hate diving out of slow fights cos it immediately puts ya on the defensive, so in an attempt to gain an advantage I've been deploying flaps.


And spinning.


Spin recovery isnt a huge problem, it's getting the P51 from a flat spin into a normal spin that takes the time.  I'd ask for tips on that but the ultimate goal is to avoid the flat spin in the first place.

[CavemanJ]

Originally posted by Andy Bush
Lephturn

>>Would flap speed limitations change with altitude?<<

Definitely. Limiting speeds are normally given in indicated airspeed (IAS). In some aircraft, the structural/aerodynamic design is such that mach number becomes an issue above a certain altitude. That mach number then becomes the limit. The operating manual would probably give the limitation as "IAS/mach #" rather than specify an altitude.

I sent you an e-mail about a flap article. My address is alfakilo@charter.net.

Andy

In AH flap speed limitiations seem to be set to your IAS regardless of altitude.  Least for the pony anyways.

--

I use my flaps quite often.  Probably so often that I don't even think about it anymore, just do it when needed.

Can't really speak for any kites in AH except the pony on the flaps though, as she's my primary ride.

Above 325 or so dropping that first notch is more of a hinderance than a help.  You end up pushing the stick forward to keep the nose down or spinning in alot more down 'vator trim than you'd really want to have.

From 250 to 325 I like to drop that first notch as I shift from lag pursuit to lead pursuit for the shot.  Dropping that notch of flaps will usually pull the nose (and guns ) smoothly through for the shot w/o having to increase backpressure on the stick.  Especially if you're looking up about 45degrees at the bandit's belly/tail (in cold side lag??) about 800-1000yds out.  Drop the notch, nudge the rudder to dip the nose a hair as ya pull through, pull the flaps up and nudge the aileron, lay down on the trigger, BOOM!

That first notch is also a nice aid in a displacement roll, whether you're trying to cause or prevent the overshoot.

Under 250 you can kick out 2 notches.  I'll keep using the first notch as above, to tighten the turn for the shot or to avoid getting shot.  Usually don't drop the 2nd notch unless I'm going over the top or trying to prevent/cause an overshoot.  There have been times I've used 3, 4, or even full flaps for this for the added drag.

[Mino]

Swoop;

By any chance is your joystick spiking?

Check the AH joystick scope to make sure.

[Swoop]

Ya know, I was thinkin that last night..........planes just felt more floaty than usual, so I recalibrated.  No difference.  No spikes seen on the graph, all looks normal.

And a 7 kill sortie in a P51D convinced me there's nothin wrong with the stick........but I didnt use any flaps except on landing.

[Iron2]

I myself find the P51D the best plane since i fly it everyday, i will have to agree that in certain situations u will need to imply more flaps then usual, if u are gettin chased u will need to extend and turn without flaps (3k out or so). 51 will pull u're plane into a nasty spin if u try to do a move takes alot of E, but u will need to watch u're speed u're situation to be able to not stall if u see that u are gettin pulled while turnin easy on the stick since it is plastic  and that should help you turn a bit easier without hearin the annoyin voice.

[FLS]

Flaps change the wing incidence giving you a higher AOA for the same pitch angle.  That's why it seems like flaps give you more lift. The lift actually results from the increased AOA. Flaps do increase the coefficient of lift allowing lower stall speeds. The lower stall speed allows a slower tighter turn.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[RightF00T]

Originally posted by Iron2
51 will pull u're plane into a nasty spin if u try to do a move takes alot of E, but u will need to watch u're speed u're situation to be able to not stall if u see that u are gettin pulled while turnin easy on the stick since it is plastic  and that should help you turn a bit easier without hearin the annoyin voice.

  Head swooning there.

[Gremlin]

For me the secret of using flaps is not how to use em but when.  The best use I see for flaps is that moment when your just a little to fast to make that killer turn.  The flaps give you a bit of extra lift into your beam and also the extra drag will slow you just that little to make the otherwise impossible snapshot or evasive.  FTR I never use more than 1 notch of flaps unless I'm really slow and dirty and of course the whole point of being a pony driver is not to get your self into that situation, but it happens and often 3 notches can give you the edge.  Better hope he aint got friends about cause you wont be getting outta there in a hurry after being that slow:D

Swoop I suggest you go offline and  get the feel of just how far you can push it with the flaps  before you spin.  The other thing which may be your problem is a spiky stick, check it out.  It's one sure fire way to give you that nasty spin.
__________________
Flt.Lt.Gremlin
Firebirds, 56 "Fighter" Sqn RAF.
Second Tactical Air Force

"Quid si coelum ruat - 'What if heaven falls?'"

[humble]

swoop,

what speed are you deploying flaps...I've found the d will "flip" to other wing in the 200-225 range if I push it...once I get down under 200 it seems more docile...I've been down at 105 or so on full flaps with no stall or spin....had a few T&B's with shane in CT where we were in the 150's still vertical...205 vs pony...course he always wins ...but he's got that pony dialed in rock solid at low speed. I think the transition from E fighting to true T&B is where pony is toughest to control.