Author Topic: P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?  (Read 1658 times)

Offline Swoop

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9180
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« on: March 07, 2002, 02:53:31 PM »
Every time I use flaps (1 notch only) in the P51D during a turn fight I go into a flat spin that'll take me 10,000ft to recover from.  Riding the stall horn just doesnt work anymore......


Any P51 experts out there that can tell me what I'm doing wrong here.......?



Offline akak

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 986
      • http://www.479thraiders.com
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2002, 04:18:17 PM »
had the same problem in the P-38 when I first started AH a couple of months ago.  Found out it was because I was being a little too ham fisted with the stick while in a turn fight with flaps deployed.


 
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders

Offline Dingy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
      • http://www.33rd.org
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2002, 04:45:53 PM »
My guess would be yer being too agressive.  Ease up on the stick a bit.  The 51 is very predictable once you get used to it.

-Ding

Offline aknimitz

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1084
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2002, 05:29:18 PM »
I would echo what Dingy said.  Dont pull quite so hard and if you feel like a stall is coming on, nose down a bit to unload those wings and decrease the lift on your plane.

Nim

Offline Swoop

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9180
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2002, 05:52:39 AM »
Now if I dont use the flaps I can do this.  Check my k/d in the P51.  But the second I deploy flaps I spin.  


Hmmmm.


Maybe I'll just avoid flaps.


:D


Offline batdog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1533
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com/
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2002, 06:34:15 AM »
Maybe your not using ENOUGH flaps when turning.... ?


xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Eaglecz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 753
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2002, 08:26:12 AM »
yeah xBat is right
i used at least 3 positions of flaps in 51B,38

Offline Swoop

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9180
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2002, 03:44:24 PM »
Hmmm.   Worth tryin......   maybe not in the MA though.  :)



Offline Andy Bush

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • http://www.simhq.com  (Contributing Editor - Air Combat Corner)
Flap Use and Spins
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2002, 04:37:41 PM »
One RL aspect of this that may apply is the adverse effect of high power settings when slow. Engine slipstream and torque effects are magnified considerably when airspeed gets low...so, if you are inadvertantly stalling the plane, these effects may be causing your problem.

Will flap extension make an airplane "easier" to stall? No. But the flaps (and the associated lower airspeed) may well make the recovery more difficult.

Is AH programmed this way? Don't have a clue.

Andy

Offline Spatula

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1486
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2002, 03:29:54 PM »
I have not had that problem if you use the 1 notch only of flap above 250. Any less and harsh banking turns can be a bit touchy. Use a lil rudder sometimes helps, or ease up on the back pressue. Between 250-and 390 a notch of flaps can be just the ticket sometimes. Me, i dont normally use em unless im deliberatly trying to beat someone to a turn, which IMO is not always a smart move in a p51.

More than one notch normally only helps you get killed.

Also, check your elev calibration too, it maybe spiking.

Also, the 10,000 foot drop spin, is best beaten by first ensuring that you trims are neutral. Then apply normal spin recovery techniques.
Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

Offline Tyro48

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 261
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2002, 05:01:31 AM »
cutting your eng will also help u recover from spin just ck 6 first

Offline Andy Bush

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • http://www.simhq.com  (Contributing Editor - Air Combat Corner)
Flap Use
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2002, 09:18:46 AM »
Spatula

If I use flaps, I expect to see something improve. What improvement in  performance do you see when using flaps at these speeds (250-390)?

Maybe HiTech or someone could answer this also. What performance increases are to be expected from using flaps in AH?

Andy

Offline Vector

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 534
P51D flaps use.......what am I doing wrong?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2002, 11:19:21 AM »

I am not P-51 expert by any means (actually I've flown mustang very little), but I would focus on amount of fuel. More than fumes in aux tank will take P-51 to high speed stall really easy when pulling hi Gs. Interesting story about P-51s sensitiviness to changes on center of gravity comes from 348th FG history:
"..McMillin's P-51 was out of service at the time and he borrowed Captain George Orr's (the 340th FS CO at the time) plane. Orr had installed some new radio equipment behind the seat of the fighter that increased weight by a total about 24 pounds. The difference in weight made no difference in the feel of the P-51 on takeoff or cruising, and thus made no impression on McMillin.
...McMillin went into his dive and immediatly experienced what is termed a "high-speed stall" when he tried to pull out. The P-51 was shuddering along its nose pointing almost horizontally, but still sliding ever closer to the deadly surface of the sea. McMillin trusted his reflexes developed in training and pushed the stick forward to get the nose down again."


He finally managed to get control of the fighter and survived. Book states:

"...It was amazing what a difference only 24 pounds could have on the performance of even a powerful P-51 Mustang"

Even though 348th FG is known of flying P-47s they moved to P-51Ds and flew them alot and were very experienced pilots.

I know that swoop is good stick and this fuel thing probably don't cause any problems to him, but IMO this is something to think about, food for thoughts atleast.

Offline Lephturn

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1200
      • http://lephturn.webhop.net
Re: Flap Use
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2002, 02:10:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Andy Bush
Spatula

If I use flaps, I expect to see something improve. What improvement in  performance do you see when using flaps at these speeds (250-390)?

Maybe HiTech or someone could answer this also. What performance increases are to be expected from using flaps in AH?

Andy



Andy,

Well flaps give us some additional lift at the penalty of additional drag.  Asking what performance increases to expect will depend completely on the plane, the altitude and speed, and what you are trying to accomplish.  In my experience the flaps in AH add various ammounts of additional lift and drag when deployed, so they should work as you would expect.  By that I mean a notch or two of flaps will give you a bit more lift with a bit more drag to go with it, and you may find that usefull.  Max flaps will give more drag and more lift, but not necessarily in proportion to one another, so if your goal is to turn at a higher rate, the additional drag may not be worth it at some point.  HT or Pyro are not going to lay out exactly what the effects of each notch of flap deployment are, they'll leave that for us to discover I'd wager.

In my view the benefits of using flaps are three fold.  1.  You can use them to gain additional lift if you can live with the additional drag that goes with it.  So, if you are attempting to follow a breaking bandit and you are quite fast and want maximum initial turn rate, popping a notch of flap will give you a bit more lift... so a bit more turn rate, at the penalty of slowing you faster.  If your craft is travelling faster than it's best initial turning speed, you may benefit from the additional drag as well as the bit of extra lift.  2.  You can use flaps to slow your plane to either force or try to prevent an overshoot situation.  3.  You can use the additional lift from flaps to lower your stall speed and either maintain control at low speeds, or perform a maneuver such as a loop when withou the flaps you wouldn't have enough speed to complete it without stalling.

Flaps are a lift/drag trade-off as I'm sure you know.  Exactly when that trade-off is "worth it" in a given situation is up to the player to figure out.  If you are wondering how flaps will affect your plane's performance at various settings... test it.  Go offline and do sustained turns over a base and time each circle at different flap settings for example.

Optimally, I'd love to see Badboy's EM diagrams for all planes in AH, including various flap settings.  That's really what we need to even start to answer your question authoritatively.  That's a LOT of work though, and HTC will (IMO only) leave that work to the users to do.  It's part of really learning the game and the plane you fly, it's part of the challenge.

Offline Andy Bush

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 153
      • http://www.simhq.com  (Contributing Editor - Air Combat Corner)
Flap Info
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2002, 06:37:31 PM »
Lephturn

Roger on that. I'm in the process of putting together another article...this one on flaps and trim use in our sims. I can really use iput from the folks that use these features, which is why I was asking Spatula for his observations.

I've tried the 51 in AH and have experimented a bit with flaps. I really don't see much yet except in the low speed range...which is where I would expect to see something anyway.

As for the speed range that was mentioned....250-390...that's well above corner velocity for this plane. Dropping flaps will have absolutely no effect on turn performance since the airplane can reach max G in a clean configuration.

This is where I think guys are getting confused. They associate flaps with increased lift and then think that means better turn performance. Maybe yes, maybe no...it all depends on the speed that we're talking about. Below corner, it is very possible that a measure of flaps will result in improved numbers.

Another factor is the max speed limit of the plane's flaps...and if this is even modeled in the sim. Generally speaking, you may consider the first "notch" of flaps to be a "maneuver flap" position, but much more flap than that and the drag penalty combined with the low max speed limit restricts their use to takeoffs and landings.

So guys, pass along your observations, if you would. Tell me what you are doing and how it affects your plane. Much appreciated!

Andy