Author Topic: Eastern front (for Oldman and Charon)  (Read 2341 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Eastern front (for Oldman and Charon)
« on: March 12, 2002, 08:52:57 AM »
Examples of allied warcrimes:

(Charon and Oldman, my reply is otw.)
This is part 1, the eastern front. I'm posting it in a separate thread because otherwise my answer would be either hopelessly long, or too vague.

Source:
The details of these, and other atrocities, are contained in the Eastern Documentation Section of the German Federal Archives at Koblenz. I hope you are satisfied with this source.

Soviet Union

GANG RAPE IN NEMMERSDORF
"Just inside the east German border with Poland, the town of Nemmersdorf was the first to fall into the hands of the victorious Red Army. Overrun by General Gatlitsky's 11th Guards Army, his soldiers set about raping, looting and killing with such ferocity that eventually discipline had to be restored to force the soldiers back to fighting the war. From buildings, Russian signs were hanging which read ' Soldiers! Majdanek does not forgive. Take revenge without mercy!'. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being stripped naked and gang raped, their bodies then used for target practice. Many women, and girls as young as eight years old, were raped so often and brutally that they died from this abuse alone. Children were shot indiscriminately and all those trying to flee were crushed to death under the treads of the tanks. Forty French prisoners-of-war were shot on the spot as spies after welcoming the Red Army as liberators.

In other East Prussian villages within the triangle Gumbinnen-Goldap-Ebenrode, the same scenes were witnessed, old men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out before being killed or burned alive. In nearby Metgethen, a suburb of Königsberg, recaptured by the German 5th Panzer Division, around 60 women were found in a demented state in a large villa. They had been raped on average 60 to 70 times a day. In nearly every home, the bodies of women and children were found raped and murdered. The bodies of two young women were found, their legs had been tied, one limb each between two trucks, and then torn apart when the trucks were driven away in opposite directions. Alexander Solzhenitsyn, an ex captain in the Soviet Army, recalls, "All of us knew very well that if girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction"

KATYN FOREST
Snipped this one, cuz message was too long. I can post it if you want. But this one is widely known and not (to my knowledge) disputed

MURDER AT BRONIKI, UKRAINE
"On July 1st 1941, around 180 German soldiers of the 2nd and 6th Infantry Regiments and the 5th Artillery Regiment were taken prisoner by the Red Army in the town of Broniki. Most were suffering from battle wounds. Next day, the 2nd of July, advancing Wehrmacht troops discovered 153 bodies in a clover field near the town. All had been brutally murdered. According to the twelve survivors of the massacre, they were taken to the field just off the main road and forced to undress. All valuables such as money, rings, watches as well as their uniforms, shirts and shoes were stolen. Standing there naked, the prisoners were then fired upon by machine guns and automatic rifles. A few managed to escape by fleeing to the nearby woods. Similar reports from other regiments gave rise to the suspicion that the Soviets, in the early stages of the war, were not taking any prisoners. There was a division order, according to which every Russian soldier who shoots twenty German soldiers, received a three day leave pass to go home. He also was decorated and raised in rank."

THE PRISON MASSACRES
Snipped for room. I can post details if you want. But since this was another case of NKVD killing Soviet citizens, perhaps it is irrellevant to our current discussion.

ATROCITY AT FEODOSIA
(Dec.29, 1941) "On the shores of the Black Sea, on the Crimean Peninsula, stands the port city of Feodosia. On the 3rd of November the city was captured by the German 46th and 170th Infantry Divisions. As the attack on Sevastopol was about to take place, most of the German forces were withdrawn to concentrate on the forthcoming battle. Left behind in the city were a small detachment of troops and all the wounded soldiers convalescing in the city's hospitals. On the afternoon Dec.29, the city was bombarded by the Soviet Black Sea Fleet and a landing was made by Soviet marines followed by infantry. On the 18th of January, 1942, after their failure to capture Sevastopol, the German Wehrmacht was able to return an recapture Feodosia. They found that most of the German military personnel had been murdered. Wounded soldiers had been thrown out of the windows of the hospital to make room for Russian wounded. Water was then poured on the near dead bodies and then left to freeze. On the beach, piles of bodies were found where they were thrown from a wall several metres high after being beaten and mutilated, their bodies left in the surf so that the sea water froze and covered them with a sheet of ice. There were some twelve survivors who had hidden in cellars when the Russian troops arrived. Their testimony before a German court of inquiry confirmed that some 160 wounded soldiers were liquidated this way."

Poland

POLISH MURDERS
“Unable to stem the onrush of German forces during the invasion of their country, Polish soldiers and civilians started fleeing eastwards. It was during this flight to the east that the ethnic German civilians, resident in Poland for many years, received the full impact of the spite and hate stored up in the hearts of the fleeing Polish soldiers and their civilian followers. German houses were entered and the occupants arrested and then murdered. Not all were shot, many were brutally put to death by all sorts of tools and their bodies severely mutilated. As the soldiers left to search for more German houses, their civilian helpers were left behind to plunder and steal and in most cases, to set the house on fire. Many of the German women were raped before being shot. During this retreat to from the west, the Polish soldiers, together with the civilian irregulars, were responsible for the deaths of around 6,000 German civilians. At a later investigation, the testimonies of 593 witnesses established the fact that at least 3,841 named ethnic Germans were murdered by the Poles prior to the full German occupation.”

British Army and Serbian Partisans

THE BLEIBURG-MARIBOR MASSACRE.
(May, 1945) "During the last days of the war, the Croatian armed forces, as well as tens of thousands of civilian refugees, fled towards Austria to escape the wrath of the Yugoslav communist partisans. In Austria, the British army was about to accept their surrender in a field at Bleiburg, on the Austrian-Slovenia border. In this huge open space was crowded an estimated 100,000 Croatian troops and civilian refugees. In the woods surrounding the field, Titoist Partisans had infiltrated and set up defensive positions. As negotiations were proceeding for the Croat troops to lay down their arms, the rattle of machine-gun fire was heard from the woods above. The crowd of troops and refugees, too densely packed to move freely, fell in droves as the machine-guns played their deadly fire back and forth. Within minutes, thousands of bodies lay dead or dying. To add to the horror, hundreds of horses, some still harnessed to their carts, panicked and dragged their wagons over the bodies of the fallen. Those that survived were simply driven back across the border to be dealt with by the waiting partisans.

On other parts of the border, masses of Croatian soldiers and civilians were turned back after being disarmed by the British forces. Crammed into trains and military vehicles like sheep, they were told that they were being transported to camps in Italy. At the town of Maribor they were released from the transports and handed over to Tito's partisans, only to be shot down in their thousands in a massacre that lasted over a week. The 17th Partisan assault Division, under the direction of Serbian officers, carried out the massacre of some 40,000 persons in the Tezen Forest at Maribor. At Sestine, 5,000 were murdered, at Vrgin Most another 7,000 fell to the partisan's bullets. Untold thousands of Serbs and Slovene Home Guard (Domobranci) from the camp at Viktring in Austria were massacred in a most brutal fashion and their naked bodies thrown into a deep chasm at Kocevje after which grenades were thrown in. There were about three of four survivors from this massacre. In total, 12,196 Croats, 5,480 Serbs, 8,263 Slovenes and 400 Montenegrins were handed over to the partisans. It is estimated that around 180,000 Croatian soldiers and civilian refugees were massacred by Tito's communists.

At the time of the massacres, a state of war existed between Great Britain and Croatia and therefore these victims should have been granted prisoner-of-war status after their surrender and entitled to proper treatment under the Geneva Convention. Thus Britain broke the regulations of the Convention by sending these defenseless beings back to their deaths."
« Last Edit: March 12, 2002, 09:09:34 AM by Hortlund »

Offline straffo

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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2002, 09:49:10 AM »
and Oradour ?

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2002, 10:58:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
and Oradour ?


Well, first, I dont think that Oradur-Sur-Glane would qualify as an allied warcrime since the soldiers responsible for it were part of Reg "Der Fuhrer", 2nd SS Pz div "Das Reich".

Second, I dont think it would be accurate to place Oradur-Sur-Glane (a town in France) in a thread about atrocities on the eastern front.

Do you feel otherwise?

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Eastern front (for Oldman and Charon)
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2002, 11:28:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Examples of allied warcrimes:

(Charon and Oldman, my reply is otw.)
This is part 1, the eastern front. I'm posting it in a separate thread because otherwise my answer would be either hopelessly long, or too vague.

Source:
The details of these, and other atrocities, are contained in the Eastern Documentation Section of the German Federal Archives at Koblenz. I hope you are satisfied with this source.


We eagerly anticipate your message which will bring this all together.  In the meantime, while I am most willing to recognize a wide variety of atrocities on the Eastern Front, I can't accept your source as accurate, without more.  You only need to read a few paragraphs to see that the author(s) were writing for effect, not to simply inform.  This doesn't make the account(s) untrue, but it does make them unreliable.

(Offered as a public service on behalf of the American Society to Assist Budding Swedish Jurists.)

- oldman

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2002, 11:29:22 AM »
Poland

POLISH MURDERS
“Unable to stem the onrush of German forces during the invasion of their country, Polish soldiers and civilians started fleeing eastwards. It was during this flight to the east that the ethnic German civilians, resident in Poland for many years, received the full impact of the spite and hate stored up in the hearts of the fleeing Polish soldiers and their civilian followers. German houses were entered and the occupants arrested and then murdered. Not all were shot, many were brutally put to death by all sorts of tools and their bodies severely mutilated. As the soldiers left to search for more German houses, their civilian helpers were left behind to plunder and steal and in most cases, to set the house on fire. Many of the German women were raped before being shot. During this retreat to from the west, the Polish soldiers, together with the civilian irregulars, were responsible for the deaths of around 6,000 German civilians. At a later investigation, the testimonies of 593 witnesses established the fact that at least 3,841 named ethnic Germans were murdered by the Poles prior to the full German occupation.”


sources please?

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2002, 12:06:09 PM »
Another pile of neonazi roadkill?...

Concerning Soviet "crimes": do you know that in 1941 OKW issued an order, stating that no wehrmacht soldiers will be responsible for any crimes, including military ones, against civilian population of the USSR?

OTOH - any rapers/murderers/marauders in Soviet Army in Europe were executed in front of their regiments. Many veterans said that they were too frightened to revenge for their home land...

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2002, 12:16:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Boroda
Many veterans said that they were too frightened to revenge for their home land...


 Right. If any one of them ever raped and murdered german civilians, he would have undoubtedly admitted it and soviet press would have published his admissions...

 miko

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2002, 12:23:08 PM »
Hortlund, German atroticities would put the crimes by the Russians and Poles that you speak of in perspective.

From the start of the war, German troops massacred prisoners.

For example:
LE PARADIS
(Pas-de-Calais. May 26,1940) A company of the Royal Norfolk Regiment, trapped in a cowshed, surrendered to the 2nd  Infantry Regiment, SS 'Totenkopf' (Death's Head) Division under the command of 28 year old SS Obersturmfuhrer Fritz Knoechlein. Marched to a group of farm buildings, they were lined up in the meadow along side the barn wall. When the 99 prisoners were in position, two machine guns opened fire killing 97 of them. The bodies were then buried in a mass grave on the farm property. Two managed to escape, Privates Albert Pooley and William O'Callaghan emerged from the slaughter wounded but alive. When the SS troops moved on, the two wounded soldiers were discovered, after having hid in a pig-sty for three days and nights, by Madame Castel of Le Paradis who then cared for them till captured again by another Wehrmacht unit to spend the rest of the war as a POW. In 1942, the bodies of those executed were exhumed by the French authorities and reburied in the local churchyard now part of the Le Paradis War Cemetery. After the war, the massacre was investigated and Knoechlein was traced and arrested. During the war he had been awarded three Kight's Crosses. Tried before a War Crimes Court in Hamburg, he was found guilty and sentenced to death by hanging, and on January 28, 1949, the sentence was carried out. Married with four children, his wife attended the trial every day.

WORMHOUDT
(Pas-de-Calais. 27/28 May, 1940) The day after the Le Paradis massacre, some 80 men of the 2nd Royal Warwickshire Regiment, the Cheshire Regiment, and the Royal Artillery, were taken prisoner by the No7 Company, 2nd Battalion of the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. At Esquelbecq, near the town of Wormhoudt, the prisoners were marched into a large barn, and there the massacre began. Stick grenades were lobbed in amongst the defenceless prisoners who died in agony as shrapnel tore into their flesh. When the last grenade had been thrown, the survivors were then ordered outside, there to be mown down under a hail of bullets from automatic weapons. The SS then entered the barn again to finish off the wounded. Fifteen men survived the atrocity, only to give themselves up to other German units to serve out the war as POWs. Unlike the Le Paradis massacre, the victims of Wormhoudt were never avenged, as after the war no survivor could positively identify any of the SS soldiers involved.

Pacification

After the German takeover of Poland in 1939, so called 'pacification' raids on towns and villages were started. The SS method of 'pacifying' a district and subdue the local population was to shoot a few hundred of its inhabitants. Picked at random, they were marched to the place of execution and forced to undress and to lie face down in previously dug pits. They were then shot and their corpses covered with a layer of quick-lime. A second batch of victims were then ordered to lie down on top and after they were killed another layer of quick lime was thrown on top. This procedure was repeated till the pit was full. It was then trampled down until the surface was level and on which trees or grass was planted. Executions such as this were committed daily by the Nazi death squads as they marched victoriously through Poland, and later the Soviet Union. In the village of Szalas , all male inhabitants over the age of fifteen, 300 in all, were rounded up and many machined-gunned to death, the others were locked in the local school which was then set on fire. An order issued by Hitler stated that 'no German soldier could be brought to trial for any act committed against Polish or Russian citizens'.

BYDOGSZCZ  MASSACRES.

In the area around  Bydogszcz (Bromberg ) about 10,000 non-Jewish Polish civilians were murdered in the first four months of the Nazi occupation. This, the largest town in Pomerania had a population of around 140,000. Its priests, lawyers, teachers and industry leaders were arrested and executed in the town's square by machine-gun fire. About 100 twelve to sixteen year old boy scouts were rounded up and machine-gunned to death on the steps of the Jesuit Church. For every German soldier shot, a group of between 50 and 100 Polish civilians were randomly selected and executed. Participating in the shooting of hostages on September 10th, 1939 were members of the Police Battalion 6 (Berlin). Head of the SS, Heinrich Himmler, had said 'All Poles will disappear from the world'. In the provinces of Lodz and Warsaw, the SS conducted a total of 714 executions which took the lives of 16,376 Polish civilians, mostly the leading intelligentsia and aristocracy, civil and political leaders. The most victimized class of Polish society was the clergy. In Pomerania, only 20 of its 650 priests were allowed to remain, the rest were either shot or sent to concentration camps. In Wroclaw, 49% of its priests were killed. In Chelmno, 48%, Lodz, 37% and Poznan, 31%. In Warsaw 212 priests died at the hands of the invaders. The last transport of Jews from Bydogszcz arrived at the Warsaw Ghetto on March 10, 1941. In September, 1939, Poland had a Jewish population of 3,351,000. Only 369,000 were alive at the war's end.

All from the same page you used as a source.

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2002, 12:25:27 PM »
Miko, don't say such stupid things any more.

The worst Soviet "official war crime" was to let every soldier send 16kg of "trophy" home.

Not much comparing to what nazis planned for Eastern Slavs, isn't it?

Anyway, the Nuremburg Court stated it straight enough. The real military criminals got what they deserved.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2002, 12:44:42 PM »
I'm sure we all are aware about holocaust but there were also horrors made by allies.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP7.ADDENDA.HTM
http://www.iolaos.com/scriptorium/english/archives/sginferno/sgi00.html

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2002, 12:46:43 PM »
Boroda you are so full of crap. Not even going to waste my time. You seem like a smart man, I don't know why you still believe all that Soviet propaganda BS.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2002, 01:07:46 PM »
ATROCITIES IN SICILY

(1943) Many massacres of prisoners of war were committed by the American 45th (Thunderbird) Division during the invasion of Sicily in 1943. At Comise airfield, a truck load of German prisoners were machine-gunned as they climbed down on to the tarmac, prior to be air-lifted out. Later the same day, 60 Italian prisoners were cut down the same way. On July 14, thirty six prisoners were gunned down near Gela by their guard, US Sergeant Barry West. At Buttera airfield, US Captain Jerry Compton, lined up his 43 prisoners against a wall and machine-gunned them to death. West and Compton were both arrested and convicted of murder. They were sent to the front where both were later killed in action. On April 29, 1945, units of the 45th. liberated the concentration camp of Dachau where more atrocities were committed.

CHENOGNE

(Jan 1, 1945)    In the village of Chenogne, the US 11th Armoured Division had captured around sixty German soldiers. Marched to behind a small hill, out of sight of enemy troops still holding the woods beyond the village, the prisoners were subjected to a volley of machine-gun fire. On this cold and frosty first day of 1945, the GIs were showing no mercy for their unfortunate prisoners as they crumpled to the ground, shot dead in cold blood. With memories of the Malmedy massacre still fresh in their minds, killing had become impersonal, revenge was now uppermost in their minds.

THE WEBLING ATROCITY
(April, 1945) On the same day that the Dachau Concentration Camp was discovered, a massacre took place in the little hamlet of Webling , about ten kilometres from the camp. A Wffen -SS unit had arrived at the hamlet, which consisted of about half a dozen farm houses and barns, to take up defensive positions in trenches dug around the farms. Their orders were to delay the advance of the American tanks and infantry of the 7th.US Army which was approaching Dachau. The farms, mostly run by women with the help of French POWs, came under fire on the morning of 29th.April causing all inhabitants to rush for the cellars. One soldier of the US 222nd. Infantry Regiment of the 42nd Rainbow Division, was killed as they entered the hamlet under fire from the Waffen-SS unit. The first German to emerge from the cellar was the owner of the farm, Herr Furtmayer. He was promptly shot dead. Informed by the French POWs that only civilians were in hiding, the GIs proceeded to round up the men of the SS unit. First to surrender was an officer, Freiherr von Truchsess, heading a detachment of seventeen men.The officer was immediately struck with a trenching tool splitting his head open. The other seventeen were lined up in the farmyard and shot. On a slight rise behind the hamlet, another group of eight SS were shot. Their bodies were found lying in a straight line with their weapons and ammunition belts neatly laid on the ground. This would suggest that the men were shot after they surrendered. Altogether, one SS officer and forty one men lay dead as the infantry regiment proceeded on their way to Dachau. Next day the local people, with the help of the French POWs, buried the bodies in a field to be later exhumed by the German War Graves Commission and returned to their families.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Eastern front (for Oldman and Charon)
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2002, 01:08:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Examples ofalliedwarcrimes:

...the eastern front.


Im not sure how to put it any more clearly than that.

If you want to point to the holocaust, or German warcrimes, feel free. But the reason I posted this thread is to have some references  to be used in another thread later.

We can sit here and write 100 000 posts if we are going to cover German warcrimes too. But generally, German guilt is not that controversial (i e, everyone knows exactly what the Germans did and to whom).

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2002, 01:17:12 PM »
Blimey - Raub was obviously brought up on the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

WTF do you know about suffering of Soviet civilians on occupied territories you dolp?

Hortlund - you've stated that you do not condone nazism but you seem to be doing pretty well "revising" history. You may not use lies but you've surely mastered an art of massaging the truth.

"Lets select a few examples showing how the Allies were bad, lets "forget" and absolute abandance of cases when Nazis were being horrible beyond belief and hey - Wehrmaht does not look so evil after all, especially for those who didn't study history at school and are totally confused who was fighting who and why since former "friends" later became mortal enemies and evil Germans are suddenly our best friends..." Shame on you.

Miko - you don't have to forget where you came from to be a good American.

Offline Raubvogel

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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2002, 01:21:52 PM »
Lynx, I wasn't disputing the fact that the Germans committed atrocities against Soviet citizens. They most certainly did. What amazes me is that Boroda seems to think that the Soviet troops were angels in comparison. That is simply not true at all.