Author Topic: Unperk the Ta-152 (Read 1835 times)

Urchin · « **Reply #45 on:** August 06, 2001, 03:16:00 PM »

Sorry that it been so long since my last post. I'm now sitting in the beach house with a HORRIBLE sunburn, and I'm using ny cousins laptop.

StSanta- I disagree that the Ta-152 is the "best" bomber interceptor. In my opinion, the 109G10 is at least as good, and probably better. The G10 climbs much faster, and with the 30mm with gondolas, it has the same guns (less ammo), plus 2x13mm MGs, which can do more damage than no MGs at all. Plus, the G10 doesn't cost 40 points to fly, which is all to easily lost with a lucky burst of buff .50s. Or a disconnect.

Dowding- I have never said I am trying to get the la7 perked. I was merely pointing out the fact that, even UNPERKED, it can hand a Ta-152 its ass. That is one reason I don't believe that the 152 would even see moderate usage in the MA- it is FAR from being the best "runstang" type plane in the game. The N1K2 had under 100 units produced, at least according to the source I found (if you have different data please post it), and it is by far the most used plane in the MA. The F4U-1C, with a production run of 200 aircraft, was far and AWAY the most used plane before it was moderately perked. It wasn't perked because of its limited production status, it was perked because EVERYONE USED IT. The Ta-152 had a production "run" as it were of somewhere around 150 planes- yet it is perked to a cost of 40 points. The question I have is WHY? It isn't because of MA performance, and apparently it isn't because of the small number produced, so why pick the TA-152 to perk out of existance?

EIDT- Also, I'd like to see HTC do something about the loss of perkies on disconnects- my "offical" record in the Ta-152 this tour is 5 and 0- but I've lost 120 flying it so far (one wipeout on a deadstick landing, and 2 disconnects in an hour).

[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

Hooligan · « **Reply #46 on:** August 06, 2001, 04:58:00 PM »

Urchin:

I'm am afraid your wish concerning retention of perk points during disconnect may not be feasable. Consider the following:

1) Somebody is flying their Ta-152 and the net burbs so they disconnect.

2) Somebody is flying their Ta-152 and spot an enemy La-7 with such an advantageous position that they feel they cannot survive, so they yank their net cable and cause a disconnect to save their perk points.

If you can come up with an algorithm that will reliably allow HTC to tell the difference between an inadvertant disconnect and a intentional one then maybe you can convince them to implement it.

As it is, the current policy is at least as fair as is possible. Everyone suffers from disconnects so everyone runs a certain amount of risk.

Hooligan

Urchin · « **Reply #47 on:** August 06, 2001, 05:25:00 PM »

Yea, good point there. I foolishly assumed that since I am an honest person other people are to. This is a stupid assumption in real life, and an even dumber one on the internet. I'd still wish there was a way to tell between the intentional disconnects, and the unintentional ones that seem to have been plaguing AH for the past few weeks.

Urchin · « **Reply #48 on:** August 12, 2001, 02:40:00 AM »

Just didn't want this thread to go to waste, as I am now back from vacation and still trying to fly the Ta-152. Died twice today, but at least I didn't get disco'd.

First time was a doozy- I was around p14 at 20k or so, in a slight dive. Spot a friendly with a Dora and a Spit on his tail, I dive down to help. I actually got going to fast and the spit shot him down as I looped around to get on the Doras tail (who has looped around to get on my countrymans tail). Dora tried to do a gentle turn to the right, obviously leading me to the Spit. I followed, because I knew if I tried to run the Dora would be all over me (since the TA-152 isnt FASTER than a Dora until 25k, and we were on the deck). Pulled within d250 of the Dora, let go with 2 short bursts. First burst hit, with on apparent effect, 2nd burst also hit with no apparent effect, but the Dora augered. Obviously, at least one burst had some effect. Blew most of my speed pulling lead on the Dora, look back and there is a Spit sitting at d400 spraying those hizookas for all he is worth. Tried to roll out of the way, ended up exploding as he wasnt fooled by the manuever.

2nd death was a classic. After reupping and heading back to p14, I ran into the Dora again. He was chasing another countrymate of mine around until I dove in, at which point we began chasing HIM around. He dove for a Osty that was parked near our base, I pulled off and he went after me. SOB blew him away. The Osty later ate 2 bombs, but I had nothing to do with that. Started climbing, got up to 15k or so, and I spot a co-alt dot. Since I had nailed a Lanc going for our fleet a little earlier, I figured it was a Lanc. Nope, it was a b17. I foolishly went for the HO, going about 450 (for a combined speed of 650 or so more than likely). B17 blew me up with the greatest of ease. I never got in range for a shot. OH, btw, no, I wasnt headed straight for him either, I was diving below him, and was going to pull up and try to gun down his belly as I passed. Evidentally the HO is not a good tactic when hunting buffs, I'll stick to my usual 3-9 passes. It is sort of curious that the Germans used the Head on attack so often, and even against whole formations of B17s... they must have been REALLY stupid. No wonder they lost the war (tongue firmly in cheek).

Urchin · « **Reply #49 on:** August 12, 2001, 02:53:00 AM »

Oh, and with 11 of 50 Ta152 kills... I have 20% of the kills in the bird by myself this tour... impressive, isnt it?

Urchin · « **Reply #50 on:** August 12, 2001, 03:07:00 AM »

Lastly, I want to paste an email I sent to HTC about this- havent gotten an answer back yet though. Only sent it about 2 weeks ago, so I'm not to dejected yet. You guys tell me whatcha think.

""Hi, I go by Urchin in your great game. I fly a little bit of everything ;-), but mostly Luftwaffe planes, because they are so good looking ;-). I was wondering about the perk value of the Ta-152, why is it so high? Is it because of its performance, or because of its rarity in real life?

Just in case, I sort of prepared "arguments" for lowering the perk value in either case.

If you have perked it because of its percieved performance in the Main Arena, and the impact it would have, I feel that even 40 points is far to large a value. I'd say 90% of all the fights in the MA take place under 10,000 feet. Under 10,000 feet, the Ta-152 isn't even as good as a 109G10 or a 190D9. It is slower than both of those planes, climbs slower than both of those planes, rolls slightly better than the 109, but worse than the 190, and turns worse than both of the planes (all of this is of course based on personal experience). Furthermore, the 109G10 and 190D9 are inferior to a number of planes at low level, so it isn't even likely that a totally unperked Ta-152 would see more action than either of those planes (at least not in the long run, if it were unperked people might fly it for a while just to fly it).

If the Ta-152 is perked because of its rarity in real life, then surely the C-Hog deserves to be perked at around 35 points, and the Niki at around 70. The only source I have that I can give you a link to is this - http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/

It has listings for the amount of planes produced for a lot of different planes (it is a neat page ;-)). According to the webpage, there were somewhat more (not many more) than 150 Ta-152s that actually "went to the front" as it were. The production of the F4U-1C was limited to 200 planes, and production of the N1K2 Shiden was limited to 60+ "a handful", before the factories were destroyed (and the lack of raw materials played a role in the number produced as well). As you know, the N1K2 is far and away the most used plane in the arena right now, with 19,732 kills last tour. The F4U-1C had 7,541 kills. The Ta-152 had 200 kills. Even the C.202 had 216 kills, plus it was flown at least 5 times as often (101 deaths for the Ta-152 vs. 561 deaths for the C.202). Even the C-47 had more kills than the Ta-152, which is amusing actually ;-).

I think an appropriate value for the Ta-152 would be somewhere in the area of 6-10 points- but I also think that the ENY value on it should be lowered so that it is possible to earn perk points in it on an average sortie so that when you die, or are forced to crashland you don't lose a whole ton of perk points. I really believe that even unperked you would not see a tremendous upsurge in the use of the Ta-152, but hopefully you might see a few flying out there. I have seen one (not counting the ones that I flew) in my 4 months of flying AH now.

Anyway, you seem to be very open to customer feedback as a company, which is an EXCELLENT thing, in my opinion. I hope that you will at least take my arguments under consideration, and it would be great to hear from you regarding this issue. Thanks in advance, and looking forward to hearing from you.

Urchin""

bloom25 · « **Reply #51 on:** August 12, 2001, 03:28:00 AM »

My personal opinion is that the ta152 should be perked, but the cost should be less. I'd say 15 - 20 points.

I personally like the perk system, it is certainly limiting the perk planes usage so that they are very rare. On the other hand I do think the points needed are a little high. The Ar234 should be the most expensive perk plane in the current set (35 - 40), the ta152 and tempest should both be about 15 points, and the c hog about 5. When we get the me262 next version it should probably be about 100 - 150 pts.

Karnak · « **Reply #52 on:** August 12, 2001, 04:07:00 AM »

I agree with Bloom25, the Ta152H-1 should be about 15 perk points.

I've flown it and it is a pretty sweet fighter, but not an arena dominator. You're underselling its roll rate BTW.

BTW,

Your N1K2-J number is off as is your Ta152H-1 numbers. No combining all versions of Ta152 while singling out the N1K2-J version of the N1K series.

N1K2-J production: Naruo delivered 362 N1K2-Js and Himeji delivered 44 N1K2-Js for a total production of 406 N1K2-Js delivered. Quite a few more than 60.

Ta152H-1 production: 10 Ta152H-1s are confirmed to have been delivered, 150 Ta152H-1s are reputed to have been built before the Russians occupied the Cottbus works.

Creamo · « **Reply #53 on:** August 12, 2001, 05:07:00 AM »

Urchin, nice, story?

Your confusing how effective a 152 is by using it like it is a Spitfire or something.

I (Dora) leveled out as you came in with a huge jump, and fed you to a Spit deck level.

I did a brief speed bleed move when you closed in, and tried to stay alive long enough as the Spit closed in on you.

You stuck to me with no regard to the Spit, bleeding all your speed. I was killed, and 1 second later of course, the Spit killed you as you were dragged to almost stall speed in a 152.?

You were so excited you made a open channel comment, and a private message to me as well.

All while you lost 70 points just for a deck level jump and drag to Spitty death?

Terrible. So what was your point?

I think the perk price is high for the 152 if it is based sure on plane ability. Im guessing it's rather for how rare the plane was. Certainly, as all late war stuff was rare, it would usually be pretty good in the ability factor due to obvious technology advancments.

The way you flew it was simply, silly. Don't tell those stories in defence of it's perk points, really.

Oh, as for story 2 you told, that was SOB that kilt me with his Spit. After I drug him and you over a FLAK 3 times within 100yrds, that was too busy shooting the base to care for the 3 6 calls i gave him, SOB got me.

That was the second time you had a 152 on the deck. Keep it high, you'll do better.

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]

Urchin · « **Reply #54 on:** August 12, 2001, 10:03:00 AM »

Karnak- I only took the numbers off the site that I gave the link to in the email. The exact line for the Ta-152H production was this one.

Quote

Approximately 150 Ta 1252H-1 fighters were manufactured between January 1, 1945 and the final abandoning of production with the arrival of Soviet forces at the Cottbus assembly plant.

Where did you get your numbers for the production of both the Ta-152H and the N1k2 Shiden? Oh, and BTW, I wasn't combining all the types of the Ta-152, as you can see from the line above that was only the H version. The Ta-152B was not included in that count. Also- that source alleges that the Ta-152H was "planned" with 1x30mm,2x20mm, and another 2x20mm in the upper nose, what happened to the last pair? They weren't delievered like that, I wonder what happened with that?

Quote

Urchin, nice, story?
Your confusing how effective a 152 is by using it like it is a Spitfire or something.

I (Dora) leveled out as you came in with a huge jump, and fed you to a Spit deck level.

Actually Creamo, the Spit was fighting already, YOU dove in to help gangbang, and I dove in after you. You may have been fixated on my countryman, but I was back there trying to slow down enough to get into the fight. Unfortunately, he got shot down before you, or I got in the fight.

I did a brief speed bleed move when you closed in, and tried to stay alive long enough as the Spit closed in on you.

You stuck to me with no regard to the Spit, bleeding all your speed. I was killed, and 1 second later of course, the Spit killed you as you were dragged to almost stall speed in a 152.?

Actually, some of this is almost accurate. I wasn't even looking at the spit. That much is true. However, I didn't "bleed all my speed", and stall speed for a Ta-152 isn't anywhere near 300mph, I hope. But, please tell me what you, the master of everything ACM would have done in the situation? I'll even break it down for you as I saw it. My first decision- Do I help a countryman that is in danger? My choice, YES. Obviously a decision you would disagree with. Second choice- Countryman has been shot down, I am D400 on the tail of a plane that is faster than I am, but with less E. There is a Spitfire that is going quite slow, after just finishing a fight. What do I do? I obviously chose to stay engaged with you, in the hopes that I could knock you down and then deal with the spit. Again, I assume you would have run away? I'll tell you why that is a poor decision, if you can't figure it out. *HINT- check the airspeed charts for the Ta-152 and the Fw-190D*.

You were so excited you made a open channel comment, and a private message to me as well.

All while you lost 70 points just for a deck level jump and drag to Spitty death?

Terrible. So what was your point?

This is pretty much drivel, but it makes a nice neat section of its own.

I think the perk price is high for the 152 if it is based sure on plane ability.

At least we agree on something.

Im guessing it's rather for how rare the plane was. Certainly, as all late war stuff was rare, it would usually be pretty good in the ability factor due to obvious technology advancments.

My only real argument would be - F4U-1C. 200 units PRODUCED. Perk cost originally nothing, perked to 8 points now. Don't think anyone would disagree that this plane still flies in the MA at 8 points. TA-152H. 150 units produced. Perk cost originally? It was higher than it is now, at 40. The C-47 had more kills last tour.

The way you flew it was simply, silly. Don't tell those stories in defence of it's perk points, really.

Well, I killed you flying that way, so whats the way that you flew called? And by the way, I'm going to tell any story I want to tell, on whatever subject I feel like.

Oh, as for story 2 you told, that was SOB that kilt me with his Spit. After I drug him and you over a FLAK 3 times within 100yrds, that was too busy shooting the base to care for the 3 6 calls i gave him, SOB got me.

I know that was SOB that got you. Too bad about the Flak not paying any attention to you, but you forced me to break off just by flying over it. Oh yea, and whats your point here?

That was the second time you had a 152 on the deck. Keep it high, you'll do better.

Oh, i do OK in it now. So far I am 11-2 in it, because I AM fairly careful. Take a note that one of my deaths was actually at reasonably high alt (for the MA), and happened while I was attempting to intercept a B-17. I.E. fly the airplane the way "it was meant to be flown"- although why anyone would risk 40 points when 1 solid burst from any buff will kill you, I don't know. Of course, I do it still.

[/b]

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]

Urchin · « **Reply #55 on:** August 12, 2001, 01:33:00 PM »

Oh, I'm 11 and 3 now. Bounced a B17 on his bomb run, he got me, go figure. Dove straight down towards him, pinged a wing. Pulled up outof the dive a little hard I guess, because I ended up in front of him (like i wanted), but not headed back up. Somehow managed to pull off a 350 mph stall, plane just hung there in front of the b17, couldn't move ailerons or elevator. B17 shot the tail off after that. Starting to actually wonder why I'm bothering. Going to change my sig to "remove the Ta-152 from Aces High".. maybe they can give the Spit or N1K2 a new paintjob or something.

Karnak · « **Reply #56 on:** August 12, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »

Urchin,

I used two sources for each number, the Ta152H-1 numbers seem less reliable.

I got numbers for both from Fighting Aircraft of World War II by Bill Gunston. This book quotes 406 for the N1K2-J production and "but only ten of the H sub-type had flown when the war ended. Altogether 20,051 Fw 190s were delivered, plus a small number of Ta 152s (67, excluding development aircraft)." for the Ta152H-1. I have seen numbers like those used on this BB for the total Ta152 production as well.

I have found the info on this site to be mostly accurate, here is their N1K2-J page: WW2 Warbirds N1K2-J
This site lists the N1K2-J total production at 415.

I used "The History of German Aviation, KURT TANK: FOCKE-WULF's DESIGNER AND TEST PILOT by Wolfgang Wagner" as my second source for Ta152H-1 production. It states "The H-0, H-1 and subsequent H-2 series were laid down as escort fighters, a type for which there was urgent need at the time. Of course the aircraft could be employed in different roles, such as the R21 conversion for fighting in inclement weather. Approximately 150 aircraft are reputed to have been manufactured at the Cottbus works before the Soviets occupied the city."
It seems the be combining the H-0, H-1 and H-2 production and then uses the word "reputed" which says to me "undocumented & unverified". It also doesn't say how many were delivered. It is possible that many had been built only to rot in the delivery yards.

Unfortunately, I do not have many sources for information on either the N1K2-J or the Ta152H-1.

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]

Urchin · « **Reply #57 on:** August 12, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »

Interesting stuff. Thanks for the link.

Still trucking on in the ol Ta-152. Took off from 10, a B-26 was flying overhead bombing fuel and such. Eventually clawed my way up to altitude (20k) and attempted to engage. Met my first geekdancer B-26 today... thought only the Lanc pilots did this "slow rudder circle" crap. HTC- while you are at it, please DISABLE flight controls while people are gunning, it is rather stupid for one person to be able to FLY and GUN at the same time. Not to mention infuriating for those of us that try to kill the little idiots.

Anyway, finally landed some good hits on the geekdancer, he got the ping he needed to knock out the radiator. Oh, by the way, the ta-152 seems to have a glass radiator, I've had it knocked out 3 times by bombers so far, and once by an M3. This is in 7 or 8 flights. Geekdancer got finished off by someone else as I glided down to base. I hit short, was planning on rolling to the runway, that didnt work as the landing gear broke on impact. Ended up inside the perimeter of the base, but short of the runway. Adios 40 perk points.

Karnak · « **Reply #58 on:** August 12, 2001, 02:32:00 PM »

Urchin,

It was standard in Lancasters for the tail gunner to give an order like "Corkscrew left!" if he sighted an enemy aircraft. The pilot would then throw the Lanc into a wild turning dive, then climb while the tail gunner blasted away at the German.

American bombers flew in tight, daytime formations so these things weren't an option. I see no reason that a lone American bomber wouldn't have tried them though.

Nashwan · « **Reply #59 on:** August 12, 2001, 03:52:00 PM »

Quote

HTC- while you are at it, please DISABLE flight controls while people are gunning, it is rather stupid for one person to be able to FLY and GUN at the same time. Not to mention infuriating for those of us that try to kill the little idiots.

That has got to be the funniest whine I have seen in a long time. Please don't let my targets manoeuvre when I am shooting at them.

Urchin, in another thread you are arguing against the introduction of a 1943 or 44 Spit, which had 4000 and 950 models produced, repectively. The 1943 Spit, with 4000 produced, would be less capable than the Ta152, yet you want it perked, and the Ta152 unperked. On what grounds?

[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Nashwan ]