the BF110G2

[-ammo-]

I will say what I ahve learned in the past day, I need more sources of info on the 110:)

But I did manage to do some testing in AH. here are the results. I used the P-47D25 for a side by side comparison because I have good information on it. Whether the 110 was a match for the p-47 in real life I dont know. I dont think it was, and in AH it is not either. However I still think the 110 is a little out of whack, but is yet to be determined.

here is what i got--

Top speed at 4K for the 110G2 is 345 MPH. Top speed for the P-47D25 at the same altitude is 348 MPH. I had no idea that the 110 was that fast. I grabbed to about 8K, dove gradually to 4K, and leveled off with WEP and let the  AC settle fo several minutes and then recorded the speed. Did the same for both AC.

Top speed at 23K for the 110 is 379 MPH, for the P-47 it is 418 MPH @25K. Incidently, the P-47 number is within 3% of published numbers (426 MPH). The number my book gives for the 110 is 349 MPH. This is quite different from what I got in AH, however my book doesnt specify which model of the 110 under the max speed blurb. So it could be way off. I would really like to see some better published data.

Time to climb for the 110 is 7.5 minutes to 18K. I used the default speed seting. For the p-47 I got 7.25 minutes. Both of these figures are faster than the numbers my books gave me. But not terribly off.

I did a crude test to compare roll rate for both AC. For the 110 I got right at 360 degrees 4 seconds at 340 MPH. The jug would roll 360 degrees in 3.4 seconds @ 400 MPH.

Question, what WEP system did the 110 use? When I got to 18K for the climb test I still had a fair amout of wep left. With the P-47 it was gone at 13K.

Ok still searching for better data. Cant come to a conclusion until I get better data for the 110. ANyone have any?

all for now..

[EvilDingo]

Although the WEP shut off, it's very likely the P-47 still has plenty of WEP left. WEP toggles off automatically when the engines get too hot.

All that particular data suggests is that the 110's engines heat up slower than the P-47's under WEP.

[edit] Then again, I think this is an obvious observation. By saying 'still have lots of WEP left' you must have meant until the engines get too hot. [/edit]

Dingo

[Raubvogel]

Ammo.....that 349mph figure is for the 110C...the 379 is pretty spot on

The 110 used the same WEP system as the 109s. Most common was MW50, but some of the Gs used GM-1 also. As with other German birds, it should be good for a 10 minute burst.

All the other figures you got seem reasonable. What exactly do you think is off about it?

[Nath[BDP]]

Our G-2 or C-4 for that matter shouldn't have MW50 or GM-1. In order to install these systems that weighed about 1,400lbs, the area in which the rear gunner would sit was removed. Likewise, the 190A8, A5, and all the post-E 109's in AH have long lasting WEPin AH. Some have performance based on MW50 equipped testing, like the G10, and others do not. The reason for the long WEP times in other German aircraft--I don't know.

[J_A_B]

Doesn't seem off to me.  I finally met up with a few in the MA.

It's a pig.  It's a pig that is fairly fast, but still a pig.  Every one I encountered displayed horrendous E-bleed whever they got their nose above the horizon.  I rate it as "below average" for A2A combat; about on par with the Mosquito.  It's certainly not "uber" by any means, although it can hold its own in some situations (particularly nose-low turnfights).

It is however fairly tough and seems like it has the potential to make a decent A2G fighter.  It may find a niche in AH as it's one of the few A2G fighters that can also turn fairly well.

J_A_B

[EvilDingo]

I like it a lot. I also like the P38 a ton too, but the 110 is new, and it seems to be throwing people off because it's not a complete dog in all situations.

Actually, it's quite capable. But uber? No way. Laughably not. Out of spec? It doesn't seem so to me. It IS better than most everyone envisioned -- and thats the root of the problem. Just because it performs better in the late-war dominated MA than you suspected, does NOT mean anything is wrong with it.

Someone pointed out it's K/D ratio. I think basing your argument on a K/D ratio of an aircraft that has been out only for mere days is flawed. The other aircraft K/D ratio is based on weeks, (months if you check other tours) and of course will be lower. An aircraft this new only needs a few good sticks behind it racking up kills to offset the K/D ratio. As time goes on, the K/D will stabalize.

Dingo

[Vector]

So what are the correct numbers for 110G-2 speed?
Search from the net gives max speed of 343 mph and C-4  349 mph?

[StSanta]

Anyone think the 110C is über?

Talk to Tukiyo. We were a flight of 5 110C's heavy, and he came with alt in a N1K.

Two of us tried to defend ourselves using the rear gun. Failed miserably.

1 tried a HO - same result.

Another tried running - died.

I tried a loopfight/turnfight - died.

He kept his e advantage through the whole fight.

We then upped in D9's to chase him all the way back from A1 to a7 - and then 15 miles further. Got him, eventually.

110 is dog meat to a N1K. No comparison. I suspect the same is true for the G2.

[Wilbus]

WEO times for german planes using MW50 or GM1 was about 10 minutes in real life, they then shut off the BOOST and ran it normal for 5 minutes, where after they could once again use BOOST for 10 minutes, they could keep doing this untill they ran out of Boost fluid, something that's not modelled in AH and thus, IMO, quite a bit of "disadvantage" for german planes.

Ammo, not sure for what model thise figures are for, like Raub said, those speed figures and climb figures sure look like a C4, identical actually.
Since your book said G I'm not gonna argue with it, just state that it might very well bea G4. The G4 was a night fighter, radar arays, flame dampers etc made it alot slower the the normal G versions.

AH G2, acording to charts, have a top speed of about 360-365 at about 22k. Compare this to the G4, which had a top speed of 342mph at about 23k, with antenas and flame dampers. Flame dampers not only causing drag but allso reducing engines performance it self.
The G2 seems to be pretty right modelled IMO.

Nath, from where is that info I have with rear gunner removed due to MW50/GM1 boosting? Only info about Tail Gunner being removed is because is the Schräge installation of 2xMk108 in the rear cockpit.

[Vector]

Thanks for the info wilbuz.
I understand that G-4 had antennas and other nightfighter equipments, but OTOH G-2 had bomb racks whereas G-4 didn't?

I found a reference that claims G-2/R2 did have GM-1 and it was placed to gunners position. Dunno about the reliability of this site, but it seems to have detailed info about fighters.
To compensate for the loss in performance and handling of the Bf 110G-2/R1, this version was fitted with a GM-1 nitrous oxide power-boost system. This system was positioned in the rear cockpit, in place of the radio operator. Also all defensive armament and rear-cockpit protective armor was (necessarily so) deleted.

http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/messbf110.html#messbf110verstab

[Wilbus]

Thanks for info Vector

Bomb tacks them self though, hardly cause any drag at all, bombs do, not the racks (some but it can almost be overseen), the flame dampers and radar antennas were VERY bad though and slowed them down alot. Later radar antenas which were smaller were better but they still caused significant drag.

[Vermillion]

Some more fuel for the fire.....  Not taking either side.

My sources:

Signal Pubications No. 30 "Messerschmitt Bf110 Zerstorer in Action", for a Me110G2 max speed is 342 mph at 22,900ft.

Also here is its list of Rustsatze for the G series

R1:  37mm BK37 (Flak 18) Gondola's (Required the removal fo the ventral MG151's).  Interchangeable with ETC Bomb racks.

R2:  GM1 Powerboost-Nitrous Oxide injection system (weight of the system required the removal of the nose armament) {Verm's note: There is a diagram showing this}

R3: Two 30mm Mk108's replaced the four 7.9mm MG17 machine guns. Plus a ETC500 Bomb Rack (interchangeable with a ventral cannon tray contains a pair of MG151's)

R4: incorporates both Rustsatze #1 & #3

R5:  incorporates Rustsatze #1, #2 & #3

R6:  incorporates both Rustsatze #2 & #3

R7:  119 imperial gallon fuel tank in Radio Operators compartment, plus  R3 30mm Mk108

------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of more general sources.

Complete Book of Fighters, for a Me110G-4c/R3, max speed is 342 mph at 22,900ft.

Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft, for a Me110G/R3 {Verms note: take note that it doesn't specify which G model} max speed 342 mph at 22,900ft.

[Dashe]

I think the worry that the 110G is mismodelled is simply that most online warriors don't take time to learn to beat it.  In RL, or so I am told, the 110 would turn very well at low speeds, poorly at high speeds, so just make sure to work it to your advatage when attacking it, and it should proove to perform fairly realistically in comparison to others here.

Dashe

[SKurj]

Evildingo

My mention of the 110's K/D ratio will prove its NOT uber +)
the thing burns easier than a Zeke
and is not much tougher than a C47

SKurj

[Vector]

Thanks verm!! I think you have pretty good evidence there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in anti-110 crusade, back in WB times I flew 110G's lot, but if something is wrong then we should try to fix it, right (oh yes, it's payback time, you abused our D-11 and now it's time to do 110G, hahahahaaa j/k )? BTW I recall Pyro saying something about 110G's modelling could contains some errors due the lack of proper documents?

Dashe, if Ammo tested 110G's speed 379mph and books and other information says it should be aroung 343 mph, then it is not matter of not being able to fight against it, but indeed there could be something wrong in the modelling.
110G is not so uber IMHO, after avoiding HO, 110 pilots usually run out of tricks and are beatable (well, there are exceptions too )