Author Topic: Tony Williams you out there?(or armor specialists)  (Read 511 times)

Offline SKurj

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Tony Williams you out there?(or armor specialists)
« on: March 15, 2002, 10:40:10 AM »
Tony

What do you think the chances were of the gun modelled on our PZ in AH penetrating a like vehicle at ranges over 3000yrds?  (the common engagement range in AH)


SKurj

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2002, 11:59:10 AM »
Skurj,

I depends on the ammo selected first. The HE round wouldn't have much chance due to the trajectory (like a rainbow) just to get there. The impact would have to be solid with a shaped charge warhead and a square on placement relative to the armor.  A glancing hit would cause the high temp jet to miss the aarmor or just score it on the side instead of going straight through.

The non shaped charge HE round would have to be square to the armor and would likely cause spalling rather than a penetration. Spalling means that the explosive would cause fragments of the armor INSIDE the tank, opposite of the explosive to break off and zing around inside at bulet velocities. Rather nasty stuff for the crew and any exposed ammo.  

Velocity is a non critical factor for the HE rounds as it doesn't add any penetration capability to the ammo, just hitting qualities. Ya gotta hit it to kill the target. If you can't lead the target or estimatet the range properly for the velocity of the ammo, you won't kill it.

Kinetic energy rounds, yes they did have them, were a better choice for long range. Here a square on hit would be critical for penetration. The non slopinhg armor of the German armor helped incoming rounds to penetrate IF they were of sufficient velocity  and mass to penetrate that level of armor thickness. American guns were notoriously underpowered until they got the 90mm High velocity mounted in tanks. A Sherman needed a CLOSE range encounter and a side or rear facing hit to kill a later model German panzer. The Soviet T34's faced the same situation and both the US and Soviets used high speed "mix it up" tactics to kill tanks in larger formations. Soviet anti armor gunner teams used to use a "can opener" effect on German tanks. They would use multiple guns on a single tank fired as close together as possible to insure a kill. They frequently used as maky as 6 anti tank guns at a time when conditions allowed.

A final factor, I have already alluded to, is the location of impact. The side armor, top armor, bottom armor and rear armor are the weakest for all tanks. A hit there will penetrate much easier than the frontal heavy armor. The turret is also more heavily armored than the chassis. A hit in the tacks is likely to disable the tanks mobility making it MUCH easier to kill later on when you can target it at your liesure.

Biggest problem is more the optics and gun laying systems of the time. They didn't have an accurate range detection system that would allow for that kind of shot. Most gunners of the time had to estimate the hold over based on the target appearance in the sight and select the appropriate reticle in the scope for deflection especially on a moving target.

Given the variables I have listed, you can see the probability of a kill is more in the realm of "spray and pray" than a regular expectation of a hit. Once you hit a tank and do no major damage, it tends to piss it off. Payback can be a squeak!
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Offline fdiron

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Tony Williams you out there?(or armor specialists)
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2002, 01:41:27 PM »
HE rounds are going to do about the same damage at any range.  Some AP rounds require kinetic energy for 100% of their energy.  Other AP rounds have explosive charges in them.  I know that the Germans had an AP round which penetrated the same amount of armor not matter what range it hit at.

Offline SKurj

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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2002, 02:52:44 PM »
Well i understand about the different Ammo types, but we only have AP and HE.  I am not gonna waste time firing HE at another PZ no matter the range.
I'd just like to find any data on penetration values of the standard German AP round (Gr 39?) for ranges OVER 3000yrds.


I seriously doubt that at anything above 3500yrds penetration was possible.  Maybe at close to 3000 yrds though.


You are talking about HEAT rounds fdiron, which were useless at long range as they were a very low velocity shell



SKurj

Offline mauser

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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2002, 03:28:52 PM »
Hi Skurj

Noticed you posting at the PE boards a while ago.  I don't have the answer myself, but have this link for you:
http://63.99.108.76/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/Ultimate.cgi

This is to the TankNet forums.  Very knowledgeable group of people; many of whom are current/former real life tankers.  I've seen penetration vs. range data bounced around, so you could probably try a search before posting.  

From occasional reading there, it seems 3000 yds to be possible for modern MBT's with moder FCS.  I think I even saw someone mention a Desert Storm incident where a Brit Chally got a 6000 yd (or meter?) kill with HESH.  :eek:

Not sure about WWII though, but it would seem to me unlikely to get kills from something like a 75mm that far out.  

mauser
« Last Edit: March 15, 2002, 03:32:05 PM by mauser »

Offline Tony Williams

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Tony Williams you out there?(or armor specialists)
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2002, 01:07:27 AM »
I recall reading of German 88mm anti-tank guns scoring kills at ranges of several thousand metres. The 88/L71 gun of the Tiger II could penetrate 127mm/2,500 yards/60 degrees, the Russian 85mm could penetrate 64mm in the same circumstances, and the Russian 122mm, 100mm.  For all other tank guns, the figures I have stop at 2,000 yards.

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Offline illo

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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2002, 04:20:48 AM »
German 75L48 (in PzKpfw IVh) could penetrate 84mm of flawless armor at 2000 meters. PzKpfw IVh front turret armor is 50mm. I suppose it's possible to penetrate 60mm armor at 3000m. Penetrations trough front turret at 3500m arent very propable IMO. Through sides it would be still possible tho. (30mm)

There are some tank kills at 4500m reported by Nashorn(same 88L71KwK as in Königstiger) crews in WW2.  That sounds like very extreme range. :) IIRC Longest range tank kill in WW2 was done by 88AA gun in N. Africa.  Battery of 88s fired at group of vehicles 12000m away setting M3 Lee in fire. Must have been top penetration. :D
« Last Edit: March 16, 2002, 04:23:48 AM by illo »

Offline illo

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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2002, 04:26:50 AM »
I would consider hitting moving target with 75L48 gun at 3000m impossible. Due to dispersion changes would be very very slim. Even non moving target would require many shots to hit.

Offline janjan

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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2002, 04:41:32 AM »
Yup, AH optics are a bit exaggerated in magnification.

That's the main reason for long range hits I think.

Offline Staga

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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2002, 04:49:17 AM »
"Fire and Movement", RAC Tank Museum, Bovington, 1975, pages 22–25.  "Penetration v. homogenous armour at 30º, at ranges in yards"
_________Ammunition__500y_100 0y_1500y_2000y_2500y
75mm L43___ APCBC_____84___72___62____53_
75mm L48___APCBC_____90___79___70_ ___62_
75mm L70___APCBC_____141__121__104 ___89_
88mm L71___APCBC_____182__167__153 ___139___127
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Small Arms, Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich", Terry Gander and Peter Chamberlain, Macdonald and Jane's, 1978.  Armour type unstated, ranges in metres.

7,5cm PaK40   0 degree angle
________0___500__1000__1500__ 2000_2500
PzGr39_149__135___121___109__ _98___N/A
PzGr40_176__154___133___115__ _98___83

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2002, 06:29:57 AM »
Germans 88's were plain uber ;)

Not surprised it was such a good tank killer though, a gun that can fire to 40k straight up sure will pack a nice punch when fired straight forward, no tank in any country could stand 88 hits.

Panzer Mk4 uses a 75mm, although high velocity it's no where near the 88, don't think you should score kills at 3000 as easy as you do, no numbers though, just my thought and such judging from WW2 stories by both allied and german tank crews.
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Offline SKurj

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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2002, 09:57:38 AM »
Heya Mauser

Yeah I rushed out and bought the re-release of PE.  I messed with it abit, but in the onslaught of new games, it got lost in the shuffle and didn't get much of a chance.

Not sure if i will ever get back to it


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Offline Wmaker

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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2002, 09:58:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by illo
IIRC Longest range tank kill in WW2 was done by 88AA gun in N. Africa.  Battery of 88s fired at group of vehicles 12000m away setting M3 Lee in fire. Must have been top penetration. :D


Hehe illo. I've read the same story myself somewhere...that 88 crew prolly used hitech's "hit any where in the map with T-34-cheat". :D
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Offline mauser

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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2002, 04:08:29 PM »
I got the original PE from someone here, and it stays on my hard drive for those days when I wanna go driving.  I keep the Ostpack mod on since I like it the most.  There will be an upcoming "Torch Pack" with some really great looking vehicles too (created by modders).  To me one of the only things I don't like about PE is the lack of a ballistics model so to speak.  You don't have to lead a moving target really, so long range shots don't seem so.  I guess they were trying to model for more common engagement ranges (under 1000 yds) where shell flight time would be a little less noticeable.  

From Staga's numbers, there may be a chance of penetrating at 3000 yds for the 75L48, but after that it's probably iffy.  I guess part of the reason why we get such long range encounters is the terrains lack some features and foliage.  Kind of like desert fighting.  Personally I like to close to under 2k yds in AH unless I get ranged in quick.  Remember when tanks first came out and we had external view?  I heard people were getting kills out to 4k and further.  Now that was a little off :)

As for the 88 though... what can you say? ;)

mauser

Offline SKurj

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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2002, 04:43:25 PM »
+) Yes Mauser

I picked off a column, a couple of halftracks a flak and 2 panzers at over 4k +)  They were moving towards one of our fields.  In relation to me the were crossing from about 10 oclock to 4 oclock.

I did have an elevation advantage.  I didn't need the external view, tho all that permitted was easier to spot vehicles over crests etc.

I kinda wonder if the penetration values are the same at 2.5k as they are at 5k...
Something is amiss..

I'd really like a terrain offering much more cover for GV's.

SKurj