Author Topic: Most realistic Flight Sim  (Read 833 times)

Offline Duedel

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Most realistic Flight Sim
« on: November 01, 2001, 04:12:00 AM »
I'm new to AH and like this game very much (in contrast to my girl friend  :D ). One week ago
i downloaded the IL-2 Demo and was very impressed. The graphics are unbelievible and i think it gives me a closer feeling for flying a real AC. But i think its harder too among other things caused by the View-System. In the Bf109E i cant see anything and the head turns around like slow motion.
My Question is:
Which flight sim (WB, AH, MS-CFS, IL-2, AW) is the most realistic in terms of the flight model and the View-System?

Anyone here has experiences in real WWII-AC?

Thx for reply

Duedel / Düdel

Sry for bad english im german

Offline Seeker

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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2001, 04:51:00 AM »
First you have to define realism. there's two approaches, taking to extremem examples:

There's the type of realism whereby every thing *looks* real - every gauge and every switch in the cockpit is shown, and from the outside every screw and bolt is in the right place and the paintwork is exact.
 Microsoft Flight sim is a good example typeof this type of sim.

Then there's the physics - how far does a particular plane fly on it's fuel, and how fast. How quickly it accelerates, how quickly it turns, and so forth. Airwarrorior is a good (older) example of the type.

There's no one example that has both a perfect cockpit *and* perfect physics yet.

However, AH is the best compromise of the two I've seen, and as far as I can see (not a real pilot) it's certainly the "most real" of the online sims.

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2001, 05:03:00 AM »
This debate has been done a million times. The only right answer is that there is no right answer.

Welcome to AH, BTW!  :)
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Duedel

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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2001, 05:14:00 AM »
Thx for fast reply Seeker

IMO realism is mainly the physics but also the simulated physics of the cockpit (borders, instruments - not that all instruments have to be at the right place, they only must work!), the weather, the pilot (his views, black outs...). For me good grafics dont play the leading role but are nice to have and give the game more density.
I've never flown a real AC so i can't compare the FM of AH or other sims to the real world.
As an example: in AH i could make a loop in a C-47. Is that realistic  :confused:
I don't know.

 
Quote
There's no one example that has both a perfect cockpit *and* perfect physics yet.

Including IL-2?


Duedel / Düdel

Offline Duedel

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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2001, 05:25:00 AM »
Could you please give me a few links to sources Dowding? AH has awakened my interest in WWII and flight sims.

 
Quote
This debate has been done a million times. The only right answer is that there is no right answer.

BTW my intend is not to get the one and only answer of which is the best sim (i know its 42). I'm only interested in how they differ. Might be that i should've chosen another topic   :D


Duedel / Düdel

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2001, 05:56:00 AM »
I saw a video clip of a Boeing-747 doing a barrel roll once... Sooooo... yeah... if a 747 can do a barrel roll, sure, why not? A C-47/DC-3 might do a loop  :D

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2001, 06:17:00 AM »
I’m divided on how "real" ANY flightsim is, although  the hands down winner on balancing gameplay, 250 players online smoothly, and basic aircraft FM characteristics goes to AH. No question.

F4.0 post Microprose, ala after market/patched version has got to be a achievement in realism, but I don’t play anymore because of the headaches to get it running,  and lack of a massive multiplayer experience.

I’d like AH to have real gauges, and IL2 graphics, which I would pay for gladly in their online format in fees and computer upgrades. But I’ll take the smooth gameplay and the extra 75% of sim guys that can actually log in without restriction of my wants.

It’s a trade off, always.

Thing is, I notice the trade off hardly ever in AH. Fun always cancels it out. You’ll notice the guys that it doesn’t REAL soon.  :)

Offline Seeker

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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2001, 06:56:00 AM »
One thing does puzzle me about the "realism extremists" in AH - they (perhaps correctly) want ever last weapon load out and ballistic factor modelled, but they never mention the fact that 50% of the A/C in AH have their gauges in the wrong language and the wrong measurement system.

It's no big thing, but I'd like to see Japanese, German and Italian cockpits more authenticaly portrayed; for one thing it would make it easier to compare the models with the test docs without having to convert units back and forth.

I had a look round the sim market before I jumped into AH, did any one else notice you can push more G's than pull in FA? In otherwords, you can turn tighter in red out than black out? That's the sort of gross error that almost every sim has in it somewhere, and HTC seems to avoid.

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2001, 07:39:00 AM »
A lot of people confuse realism in simulating physical details with realism simulating pilot's experience.

 There are many areas where we cannot simulate pilot's experience no matter how realisticly we simulate the details. Quite the opposite - producing unrealistic details often makes for truer simulation of pilot experience.

 The reasons for those are obgective. Here are few of those:
 1. Computer cannot simulate aircraft - there is no body feedback, stick forces, g-forces, etc.
 2. Monitor cannot simulate natural view.
 3. Pilot usually has a few months of training before he is allowed on the mission. His perceptions of the same real aircraft are quite different before and after the training.
 4. Pilots are selected by rigorous process - not everyone who can download AH would pass the requirements to become a fighter pilot.
 5. Pilots fly the same aircraft model for many months/years - not switch them every few minutes.

 Examples:
 1 inch wide canopy frame 1 foot from you face does not obscure any field of view because at one of your eyes can see pointsobscured for the other one. So narrow or transparent or nonexisting canopy frames would be much more realistic in terms of pilot's experience.

 If you make authentic japanese cockpit (unlike any other cockpit) with japanese symbology, I would feel much different in it then real life japanese pilot with hundreds of hours of experience.
 It is not realistic for a fighter pilot to have to search for a gauge in a cocpit or have to convert units.
 Of course if you spend as many hours in a cockpit of the same sim fighter as the real pilot, you would not have those problems but AH/Il2 are not training simulators but games that have to be financially profitable (in order to afford development). Most customers of such games have lives - jobs, families, children, other hobbies - and would not invest that much time in mastering the particular plane.

 miko

Offline AcId

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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2001, 07:52:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Duedel:
(i know its 42)

Ahhhh a fellow hitchhiker

  :p

Welcome!

Offline Westy MOL

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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2001, 08:02:00 AM »
Realism is subjective.

IMO it boils down to "how much does the program make you feel like you are having aircombat in a worthy replica of WWII aircraft."  

 AH is the one for me. AW, FA and WB 2.77 made use my imagination to fill in the missing blanks more than AH did. I've not flown WBIII enough to even comment. But the mush-birds FM did not make me feel all warm and fuzzy that's for sure. And WWIIO was the worst of the lot for aircraft immersion. The P-39 in the IL2 beta was completely unflyable for me and the lack of any drag on the other aircraft did not give it any good points in my eyes. But IL2 is a box game and I'm not interested in flying offline by myself. The limited capacity multiplay is buggier than BC3000  ;)


IMO, of course

Westy

Offline Duedel

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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2001, 08:17:00 AM »
OK, i'll try to detail my intense of this topic. I'm with you moki / creamo. I dont want AH get into an training simulator. Also i dont want AH get into an application that needs the new Cray computer to fly with.

My interest in WWII flight sims come from
my grandfather who was a a Heinkel HE111 bomber pilot in WWII. I like to get a little bit of the feeling he had when he was flying and therefore to know how realistic is the FM of the different Sims. Which Sim models the different AC and the whole "flying" good and which not. Its obvious that you'll never get the feeling of a real flight.
So my question (in other words):
Where are the differences between real live and sim regarding the flight physics?
Where are the differences between the sims?

<Edit>
(was typing this post and havent seen Westy's:

 
Quote
how much does the program make you feel like you are having aircombat in a worthy replica of WWII aircraft

Thats it! Thx Westy   :)
</Edit>

To AcId:
In germany they called the cocktail in the bar at the end of the universe "Pangalaktischer Donnergurgler"    :D
Whats the english word for it?
And dont forget your   :cool:


Duedel / Düdel

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: Duedel ]

Offline Dinger

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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2001, 09:51:00 AM »
Good observations.
They boil down to this:
Computer simulations have two parts: the "simulation" in the sense of the program that runs in the dark of the computer, and the "interface" that represents that simulation and provides input.

If we're talking about simulation, then it's easy to talk about realism.  Here's a list:

A. Flight Physics.
B. Weapons Ballistics
C. Environmental Effects
D. Damage Modeling

For some of these, such as how much damage a 20mm shell does to a tailplane, there's room for interpretation, but most of the factors you can put down on a list and compare.
So, for example, while WB fans may think their guns do more "realistic" damage -- and we can't challenge that -- the fact remains that their guns only model 50% of the rounds fired out of them, whereas AH does 1:1.

Another common mistake is to confuse difficulty with realism.  For example, how many of us have seen this argument moving from such a premise:

It's harder to land in Sim X than in AH.
Therefore Sim X is more realistic than AH.
Well, if Sim X doesn't model ground effect, but AH does, of course the landings will be rougher.

---
Now to the Interface.  The problem with flightsims is that the physics model and the interface often overlap.
Take, for example, control reversal and similar phenomena.
Our controls sitting in a living room are spring loaded and plugged into a computer.  If we're lucky, they've got tiny motors in 'em.
Flight Controls are hanging out in the wind.  Trim is used to fix them to a position (not necessarily center).  At certain extreme conditions, these controls on some planes will tend to move away from the center to the edges, often violently, and with unpleasant results.

So, how do we model trim? Currently it changes the relationship between the virtual stick and the real stick, not the position of the virtual stick.
But this nonsense with the controls moving on their own gets lost entirely.  So how do you model a spin where the controls lock in one direction?
You don't.
And there we have a big problem.  Take, for example, the DOA Sopwith Camel argument from a few years back.  They released a F1 with nasty stall characteristics.  A big stink ensued with one party insisting that the Camel stalled something fierce, and the other saying, "No, look at these reports from guys who flew the Camel: if it stalled, just center the controls and it'll pull out immediately."
For us at home, centering the controls means letting go of the stick, or at most overcoming a small amount of force feedback.  But it must have been something very different in a crate whirling around in a spin with the controls locked in a corner.

Furthermore, you have the problem of representing a full field of view on a television screen, icons and the rest.
Here we get into further shortcomings of the interface, and the use of analogical means to overcome them.  The success and validity of each analogy is open to debate.

Finally, there's the issue of "Realistic" situations, and none of the MMP sims do a good job here.

So to answer your question:

Realism is said in many ways.
In some ways, it's clear which FS is the more realistic.
In others, it's a matter of debate.
Regardless, flying AH is a pretty safe bet.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2001, 09:58:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa:
I saw a video clip of a Boeing-747 doing a barrel roll once... Sooooo... yeah... if a 747 can do a barrel roll, sure, why not? A C-47/DC-3 might do a loop   :D

It wasn't a 747, it was a 707.

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2001, 11:09:00 AM »
Ahem.

For those that want flight realism there is a solution. It's real simple. Take your pasty (insert skin tone of choice here) out from in front of the computer monmitor and go find a flight school. Get some lessons and preferably LEARN to fly for REAL. Don't spend a single nanosecond worrying ahbout the realism aspect of a computer GAME because IT AIN'T REAL AND CAN'T BE REAL!!!!! Real life is out there, go find it and experiance it, FOR REAL!!  :rolleyes:

<rant off>

Mav
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