Its time to stop the BS 50cals destroying armour.....

[SKurj]

nm +) figured it out i think...

Follow the range value vertical until it meets the MV line then go horizontal until u find the angle?

SKurj

[hitech]

Armor thickness on top and back is no more than 12mm i.e. 0.47 inches.

Also  increase the muzzle velocity from the chart by the speed of the airplane.

Any questions?

[mrsid2]

I think the main problem is the armour modeling..

It seems that AH armour will be destroyed by any gun as long as it gets hit sufficiently long. It doesn't take into account the fact that if an armour is thick enough it will take an infinite number of hits before failing from a small calibre weapon. Then again a powerful weapon will penetrate and destroy the armored vehicle in 1 shot which is likely with 75mm rounds.

So in AH 10 osty rounds is equivalent to a single 75mm round.
For example. Because osty can fire these rounds much faster than the tank main gun it results in having better penetration by time.

Same thing with .50 guns, they can throw an amazing amount of lead in the air and while in real life they would not penetrate the armour, AH damage model calculates the hit value away from the armor and finally destroys the vehicle.

This can result in weirdness like a jug is able to kill osties faster than the 2x40mm hurricane - only because hurri guns have such a low rate of fire and a single round can't kill the armour.

Am I far from the truth? Because if it's so the only fix is to change armour modeling so that it will simply ignore or give a fraction of value to the hits which do not carry enough power to penetrate.

[MANDOBLE]

Top and back are the largest parts of a tank and so the easiest parts to aim and hit, so, yep, a question: Why to use the less accurate rockets and bombs?

[mauser]

Thanks for the chart HT

Yep, that seems to work Skurj.  In my example, I was hit from at least 1600 yds front quarter.  It looks like the striking velocity at that range would be under 1200 fps, and assuming that the angle lines are continued down to the x-axis it seems that the .50 will penetrate less than 0.3".  Worst case, 0.3" works out to about 8mm.  The top armor of the PzIVH seems to range from 10mm to 12mm (from achtungpanzer.com). So even with a worst case hit to the top armor at 0 deg (this would probably not happen in a ground to ground scenario) the bullet would not penetrate.  I would guess that in a ground to ground scenario I was hit in the front hull/mantlet (50mm) and the striking angle would most likely not be 0 degrees, but that's only from intuition not definite.  Also, this is all moot if I'm reading the chart wrong

mauser

[hitech]

mrsid, that is now how ah models armor.

With vehicles armor is either penitrated or not, it does not take any damage, what is hit after the armor is penitrated takes damage, btw the bullet is slowed after passing threw the armor.

[mrsid2]

Oh.. That's good then.

Thanks for the reply.

[mauser]

I think my last post got caught and appeared while everyone else was editing theirs.  Can anyone confirm if my assumptions are correct and if I was reading the chart correctly?  I am considering m16 mgmc vs. the pzivh. More information in my post about 10 spots before my last one.  

mauser

[Virage]

That chart is gold. Thnx Hitech.

Am I reading it correctly to say :

@ 1575 yds the 50 cal. (short barrel) will have 1200 v and penetrate .3 inches of armor @ 0 degrees?

How does the targets relative velocity enter the equation?

Modeling the angle at which aircraft components are struck must be a headache.

The AH environment allows us to fire under perfect conditions, maximizing the 50 cal.'s capabilities:  Perfect weather, smooth air, constant wind, better than perfect eyesight, steady platform, no physical exertion or Fear of God.  Until these are added in 1.10 ( 'Fear of Yankee' already finished I hear   ) there is no better gunnery model.

[SKurj]

now +)  all this being said... how does an M16 penetrate a panzer when both are on a level plane?

Should be IMPOSSIBLE....  the angle of any hits to the upper decks would just skip off...  Any hits to the top of the turret impossible. Soo... an m3, or an m16 should not be able to defeat a panzer, yet they do in the ma...


SKurj

[hitech]

The back armor is also 12 or 10mm skurj

[hitech]

Virage: Yes you reading it correctly.

[Urchin]

Ok, charts confuse me .  

Here is what I'm going to do.  I'll try to interpret that chart according to what range/angle you'd need to penetrate .47 inches of armor.  By the way, what kind of metal was used in the test?  Would it be the same kind of metal used to make the tanks?  

The following is all for the 'short barrel' airplane .50.

At a zero degree angle, the .50 will penetrate at about 1050 to 1100 yards.  

At twenty degrees-  Roughly 850 yards?

At thirty degrees-  Roughly 500 yards?

At fourty degrees-  Roughly 375 yards?

At fourty-five degrees-  Roughly 75 yards?

Anything over that is impossible I think (at least if I'm reading the chart right).

By the way Hitech, thanks for posting that information.  Really cool of you to do it.  I'll have to do some checking out of my films and maybe do some math (along with guessing what angle the enemy plane was coming in at lol) to see if what I've seen jives with the facts, but the fact that you gave me the information I need to do it with speaks volumes as far as I am concerned.   Thanks HT.

[Seeker]

" but the fact that you gave me the information I need to do it with speaks volumes as far as I am concerned"

Just remember to use an Imperial protractor, the metric ones are porked.......

[Pepe]

Originally posted by hitech

With vehicles armor is either peni-trated or not...