N1K2J - The miracle chopper

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Montezuma
That well designed test is proof that the N1K2 model is wrong.  Good work!

Conclusive evidence like that shows why your input is valued by everyone.

LOL.  A direct hit.  

Lephturn

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE


ROFLOL, you are the one with doubts about my experience, the test is mainly for you, to verify whether n1k2 is able to do that or not.

Try not to hurt yourself laughing Mandy.

Wow, this takes us right back to my second post on the topic. If I am unable to perform the manuever it could just as easily mean that I suck in the niki as it could mean that it's a chopper.  I'm very interested in this, and I do aim to see if I can do it.

Yet somehow, I'm left to disprove allegations which have not had any proof offered. I'm certainly not saying that you didn't see what you claimed, just that it can't be taken very seriously without any sort of hard evidence. That's what I don't get. Every now and again, you provide evidence to back up your claims. Look at what you did with the 110/P-38 stats. A lot of work in there. A lot of data was gathered and presented. Great job. But in cases like this you just make a blanket statement, and then try to lay the burden of proof on others to disproove you.  This is an "argument to ignorance" if you want the standard term. (Note, I'm NOT calling you ignorant). You're saying that something is true because you claim so, and it hasn't been proved false. But then, this is all probably blah blah blah anyway.

-Sikboy

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Fishu
I haven't flown niki much, but long long time ago when I did, I took off from airfield with enemy niki inbound.
Got up and climbed a little, to end up below this enemy niki.
After couple of failed passes, he came in, I evaded, he went to loop, I waited a little, then pulled up and hung there like chopper, in the middle of his loop.
When he began going down from the loop, I flipped the nose over at correct time and got behind him.

...and within few seconds shot him down.

'

Ahhh here we go, this is more like it. View from inside the cockpit at least. Once again anectdotal, but at least its experience vs. eyewitness. Thanks for the input Fishu.

-Sikboy

[MANDOBLE]

Sikboy, Fishu saw that from his cockpit, I saw the same from the tower at less than 2000 yards of distance (a perfect spectator place). Two different points of view of the same effect.

hehe Perhaps you are insterested into asking Fishu a film to prove what he said.

But it seems JoeCrip has same experiences ...  ... more films to ask for? All anecdotal experiences?

Believe me, to hung a n1k2 by its prop doesn't require any special flying skill, go offline and enjoy the move by yourself. Uh, and you dont need to cut the throttle neither WEP.

But... ...why so many replies, in fact I have no interest at all into convincing you about anything... would my post be the opposite "N1K2 can't hung by its prop" and probably you would reply that this is anecdotal also, and that there is no evidence of that. If I show you a film of what I've seen you would answer also that this is anecdotal, that you need 2000 filmations more to take that as a fact.

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
hehe Perhaps you are insterested into asking Fishu a film to prove what he said.

Believe me, to hung a n1k2 by its prop doesn't require any special flying skill, go offline and enjoy the move by yourself. Uh, and you dont need to cut the throttle neither WEP.

But... ...why so many replies, in fact I have no interest at all into convincing you about anything... would my post be the opposite "N1K2 can't hung by its prop" and probably you would reply that this is anecdotal also, and that there is no evidence of that. If I show you a film of what I've seen you would answer also that this is anecdotal, that you need 2000 filmations more to take that as a fact.

No, Film would not be anecdotal. Maybe you should look that word up.  It would be evidence. Fishu's claim is somewhat different than yours and joecrips, because he claims to actually have done this to someone, yet even then, his account doesnt match yours. In your account a "very fast" hellcat is followed up by a niki that had started AFTER the pass with a 0 E state. In Fishu's tale, he had built up some E before following the other Niki up, and hung the prop only after his opponent had made a few passes and (presumably, to my mind) lessened his E-state advantage.

In fact, had your post been "the Niki can't hung by it's prop" I probably would have said "Hmm that's not surprising" and moved on. But you imply that this is a modeling problem without anything more than your story.  Then, when asked to provide some evidence (as you have with other perceived injustices) you start into your argument to ignorance. When I try to pin-point  exactly what your theory is, you give up on theorizing and post blah blah blah.

As to "so many replies" well, it takes two to argue and we both contribute.

-Sikboy

[MANDOBLE]

You simply didnt understand what I post, perhaps due my phetid english. The F6F arrived to our base very fast, and started to straffe it, then a n1k2 took off and tried to follow a vertical zoom of the hellcat, it failed to kill it in its first attempt, but kept hung in the vertical pointing at the F6F for a long time, firing but failing.

[Sikboy]

I think your absolutely right. The language barrier tends to exagerate these disagreements. I still do not believe that the imagine I have in my mind of what you discribed is at all possible. But it seems likely that what I'm seeing you describe, and what you are describing from your own point of view are two different things.

-Sikboy

[edit]PS: As I've said before, your english is way better than my spanish[/edit]

[mauser]

I've seen other aircraft do this also.  I saw a friendly C-hog force a pursuing con to nearly overshoot and thus chose to climb away.  The C-hog pilot (name withheld) pulls into a vertical, and shoots for 2-3 secs while hanging there (I'm sure it's not a real hover).  Was watching this from a few k away trying to get there to clear the friendly's tail.  I've seen a hurricane C do this to a fellow countryman in the CT.  That same pilot almost got me earlier with the same move, but I saw him start his zoom so was able to get clear in time.  Also F6F's.  Maybe it has to do with taking only 25% fuel and not due to a particular plane's FM?  None of the incidences I saw were right from take-off though.  Mandoble, maybe you should start the film recorder everytime you fly just in case you see these things again.  Just delete the film when you've had an uneventful night so you don't fill up your HD.

mauser

[Urchin]

Hehe... I hung a 110G2 on its tail last night going after Ruaml.  Ask him if you don't believe me.  He started out a few thousand feet higher than me, but slower in airspeed.  He went to divebomb something on a base of mine, and when he tried to zoom back up I followed him up.  All you really need to have is a good light touch on the rudder and ailerons to keep your nose pointed in the right direction-  After I got him I stalled real hard, when I looked at the speedometer I was doing about 40 mph (but I was already on the way down, so I probably was going a bit slower than that when I finally lost it).

[BenDover]

i once got in a n1k, and decided to see it verticle performance, got it to about 20mph before it flipped over, but in about 5 secs i'd regained control

so.......how put the top secret alien hover drive engine into the n1k?

[Tac]

This is the very same thing i've been discussing with others in the P38 wingloading thread.

Try doing THAT in a 190 or 109 on full WEP. The plane will fight you and kick you around the moment you get below 100mph. A g10 wont even let you recover, it'l push you into a really, really nasty spin.

Yet N1k, spit, F4U and im sure many other planes (I personally have not tested this on any other rides besides the 3 I just mentioned) can hang on prop when fully gassed, full wep. And we're talking here about a lightweight plane with a MF huge 1990HP engine and about the one ride in the US arsenal famous for its strong torque issues.

Sikboy, here's what I get:

Full gas n1k, full ammo, take off, get it to 300mph, pull nose straight up, WEP it. Keep nose up and watch your speed... you will notice that its not until 55 mph that the plane will BARELY start to roll to a side or wiggle nose up and down, but its so slight you can compensate with extreme ease. Once the n1k gets to 20mph, it ALL BY ITSELF noses over in an instant, the moment the nose is pointing down you have complete and absolute control of the plane. No spin, no stall, no torque tumble. Do the same test again, this time FIRE your guns all the way up. You will lose speed faster, but the same thing will happen, even if you keep firing way after the plane noses over on its own.

Do same test with the F4U-D (or -1 or -C or -4). The results are almost identical. The only difference is the hog will complain and fight you more than the n1k does below 100mph, but its very easy to keep the nose up. Then, when the speed drops below 40mph the F4U will also "flip" the nose over on its own. IF the pilot tries to compensate it will spin, if he doesnt, it noses down on its own.

And as I said before, if you were in the pre-fm change AH, you would remember that the torque on the F4U was a paramount, ever-present issue. You couldnt even do a LOOP because on the topside the torque would spin you out. You had to chop throttle down to half or 0 on the topmost part to not spin out. That was awesome!

[Fatty]

I do do that in 109s.  In fact you can do this with any light, high engine/weight ratio plane.

109f4 is my favorite because even with gondolas strapped on I can accelerate so fast I'm flying inverted before the first rearm pad (though the E may replace it).  And yes, I will follow up a vulcher if they loop over for a second run I will kill them.  The speed advantage is almost always overestimated (the chase plane need not zoom as high as the target, and will usually pursue into the stall since being vultched they're probably dead anyway.  The target plane must not only zoom higher but does not want to stall as he has flown a long ways and wants to maintain momentum and manuverability).

[Fatty]

Hrm Tac, I just did that offline in the 38, held fine until about 50 mph where it simply levelled out.

Of course that doesn't matter, because this is a niki flies to the moon thread I guess.

[Sikboy]

Attention Anecdote Ahead!:
[anecdote]
During my initial "get aquainted" flight with the P-38, I could have sworn that I had it slide backwards at the top of a zoom climb without spinning or stalling. I was amazed, and just chaulked it up to conter-rotating props or whatever.  I'll have to try that again with all this prop hanging talk.

On the other side of the fence, I had a FW-190 going Vertical under a Ki-61 in the MA. He was asleep at the wheel, and I KNEW I was going to waste him. Anyhow, I was about 80mph, when I pulled the trigger and WHAAAAP! that was the sound of my head hitting the canopy as I spun hard the second I hit the guns. Someone else got the sleeping Ki, and I spun right into a low spits line of fire.
[/anecdote]

Not really usefull as evidence, but sort of on-topic.

-Sikboy

[Samm]

Shiden kai is one of the best climbers in the game, because it was in real life . With wep the n1k2 pegs the needle on the roc guage untill you reach about 5k, (as it should) . It also has the ability to hang on it's prop and tailslide downward (as it should), many other planes in AH can do this as well .

 Unless you  were the one flying the N1k2, what you saw really means nothing, this is an online (internet/worldwidelaggyweb) game .

 I am dissapointed that you didn't include the fw109d9 some way in this thread . But please don't let this discourage you, I enjoy reading Monteczuma's replies and hope to see more of them in the future .