N1K2J - The miracle chopper

[Sikboy]

Originally posted by Samm
I am dissapointed that you didn't include the fw109d9 some way in this thread . But please don't let this discourage you, I enjoy reading Monteczuma's replies and hope to see more of them in the future .

Fess up Samm... you're Monty aren't you
ooops I mean, our'eya ontymay ren'tay ouyay? Gotta think opsec here! lol

-Sikboy

[Dead Man Flying]

Speaking of 190D9s... wouldn't it be funny if they likewise exhibited this strange, chopper-like ability to stand on their tails and hang there for what seems like ages at very low speeds?

Oh, wait... they do!  In my neverending quest to crush ignorance everywhere, I took all of about a minute or two to go test the miraculous flight properties of the so-called "toughest plane to fly" in Aces High.

Here is the film of my endeavor, which involves numerous tail stands at 50ias or slower.  The Dora likewise seemed to recover very pleasantly from such physically impossible activity.

Attached is a screenshot of me hanging on my prop at N1K-like speeds shortly after takeoff.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Sikboy]

CHEATER!!!!!!

[MANDOBLE]

ROFLOL, DMF, in your neverending quest to crush ignorance everywhere you demostraded, again, little or no wishdom.
1 - You used combat trim
2 - 25% fuel

Even with these optimum conditions, what you got is one nasty stall after another, being absolutely unable to keep hung vertically on your prop. And below 100 mph the only thing you do is to kick rudders in a desperate attempt to keep "climbing". This is really different than to keep the nose steady an up.

And you, as usual, forgot one point, the N1K2 not only kept still in the vertical without any violent oscilations (like your case), but then started to fire all the guns like crazy, and no stall at all, just leveled and performed a 180 dgree turn and tried again, this time with success.

Next time, try it with your spit, I'm sure you'll be able to obtain some positive results.

This is the real firing chopper:


The Chopper

[Sikboy]

No, see this isn't at all what I was expecting. I expected you to grab from 0 and be inverted OVER the field. This was obviously a mistake on my part in the interpretation. However, after reviewing the films (yours and Dead's) I guess you're arguing that the departure charactoristics are messed up? I don't know, I don't see anything out of the ordinary there.

-Sikboy

[Fatty]

Mandoble, please tell me you're not so rabid in your pursuit of the phantom niki that you would accuse DMF of using only 25% fuel in the very post where you put a film of you in a niki using 25% fuel?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
ROFLOL, DMF, in your neverending quest to crush ignorance everywhere you demostraded, again, little or no wishdom.
1 - You used combat trim
2 - 25% fuel

[/B]

This N1K that you observed from the tower... are you certain that it used neither 25% fuel nor combat trim?  I'd be willing to bet that whoever flew it used exactly the same configuration I used without the artificial restrictions you've just applied to me.

Even with these optimum conditions, what you got is one nasty stall after another, being absolutely unable to keep hung vertically on your prop. And below 100 mph the only thing you do is to kick rudders in a desperate attempt to keep "climbing". This is really different than to keep the nose steady an up.

[/B]

The stalls were anything but nasty.  In every case, at around 40ias nose straight up, the Dora would flip inverted and then level out just fine; I didn't need to fight it at all.

Second, what's wrong with "kicking rudders" in order to keep the plane stationary in the vertical plane?  I'm guessing you were zoomed in so far on the N1K who performed this manuever that you were capable of seeing whether or not he used his rudders to stabilize when he got exceptionally slow.  Or a more reasonable explanation, of course, would be that this is exactly what the N1K was doing in order to maintain his tail stand.  I'm also curious which film you were watching where I was "absolutely unable to keep hung vertically," because I counted in each instance a period of at least two to three seconds where the plane stood practically stationary on its tail before it lost enough speed to stall out.

And you, as usual, forgot one point, the N1K2 not only kept still in the vertical without any violent oscilations (like your case), but then started to fire all the guns like crazy, and no stall at all, just leveled and performed a 180 dgree turn and tried again, this time with success.

[/B]

I experienced no "violent oscilations" in the vertical plane except right at the very end when the plane would flip over at about 40ias.  Then it was a simple matter of diving for speed to about 180ias and pulling straight vertical again... essentially replicating what you've described with the N1K.  The Dora has a very capable prop hanging ability.

Next time, try it with your spit, I'm sure you'll be able to obtain some positive results.

[/B]

If by positive results you mean a replication of the sorts of results I found with the Dora, then you're most likely correct.  It seems to me that what we have going on here is a flight model issue, not a particular plane model issue.  That you single out particular planes for scrutiny merely reveals your own biases.

Thanks for the N1K film, I'll check it out and comment on it when I get a chance.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Tac]

Umm..fatty, the P-38 is supposed to do that. It can do that thanks to its counter rotating props. Now, kindly do the same in a n1k. Aside from it dipping the wing as it noses down on its own, its the same thing as a 38. From what I know, the n1k on such situation should enter a spin just as bad as the pony's flat spin (which is a real bich to recover from).

[Samm]

Why do you say that Tac ?

[Fatty]

I'm not just talking quick recovery, the nose doesn't even dip below the horizon Tac.  Not even the rumors about the heliniki can match that.

A soft recovery like in mandoble's film can be done in any plane, as long as you let off in time.  If you guys are saying that a smaller more manueverable plane has a lower stall speed than a heavier one built for a higher top speed, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with you and again question just what exactly is wrong there?

[Samm]

Just played around with the n1k2 and p51d . The p51d handled just as well as the n1k2 or better recovering from "hanging on the prop" . Neither one of them would do an bellybutton first dive like a zeke or yak though . You are right though p51 is one of the few planes in AH that will actually go into a spin if you push it too hard .

One thing I like to do if I'm in a zeke or yak that is leaking fuel or smoking is hang on the prop and then tail slide back down through my own smoke .

[MANDOBLE]

Neg Fatty, I simply used same parameters, but no rudder support at all, and firing at the top. Look at the sun movements to verify how steady was the n1k2 up to 0 mph, and still firing.

[MANDOBLE]

Well, DMF, it is clear that u have not seen my film, cause there is nothing in common with yours in the results. you were driving a brick with no hope to aim and fire at anything below 100mph, check the n1k2 film and try to do the same with a D9.

And I didnt kick the rudders to keep vertical even near 0 mph, in your film it is clear that you need to overcorrect all the time, with noticeable and clear oscilations making impossible any aiming and firing attempt. In the other hand, you didn't got hung at any moment, you went from a very accidented climb to a violent stall.

[FLS]

0 mph? Mandoble you never go less than 25 mph in your film.
You only stop climbing when you turn and dive.  You haven't shown any stopping and hovering at all.  Try holding the nose up till you hit 0 mph and start a tailslide, see how long you hover in place at 0 mph.

--)-FLS----
Musketeers

[Fatty]

The question was rhetorical Mandoble.

You did in fact cite DMF as only using 25% fuel as if that was a factor to discount his test, then you did in fact post a film of your niki test which you used only 25% fuel.