Author Topic: FW190a8 is modeled incorrectly......... (Read 1333 times)

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #15 on:** March 22, 2002, 12:02:54 PM »

Hazed, I know, what I mean about having this device installed is just the device itself and its weight, not whether it was switched on or not. I say that cause between the numbers there are some related to the GM1 usage. This was a completely different device than the plain small extra fuel tank.

Excelent work here and with the performance tables of 38, 110, 47 and A8

Sikboy · « **Reply #16 on:** March 22, 2002, 12:07:13 PM »

I don't think that AH will open the Vault on what information they base their FMs on. If only because to do so would have even more people second guessing them, and would offer information that was hard fought to their competitors. I just don't see it happening. In the past, errors have been noted. Changes have been made. You are bringing in evidence, and some of us have tried to analyse it, to find out what the descrepency is. I'm not sure that we will be able to explain it, but all the same, I don't think HTC is going to say "Here everyone, look at this data that we painstakingly uncovered, please don't use it in your sim!" I could really use those extra MPH though lol

-Sikboy

hazed- · « **Reply #17 on:** March 22, 2002, 12:11:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKSWulfe

I don't know imperial->metric conversion, so you gotta do it... but does this data match any of the data you posted Hazed?

Engine: BMW-801D-2 + MW 50. : BMW 801D
Power:
Take-off : 1,800 HP : 1,700 HP
Speed:
Sea level: 530 km/h. : 571km/h
At 6,000 m: 625 km/h. : at 6,300 m:656 km/h
Turn time at 1,000 m: 23-24 sec.
Climb to 5,000 m: 6.8 min. : only climb to 6,000 m stated and its 9.1 min
Climb in a combat turn: 700-750 m.
Service ceiling: 10,500 m. : 10,300 m (11,400 m with GM1)
-SW

added what i have in book in bold. this help?

Naudet · « **Reply #18 on:** March 22, 2002, 12:31:08 PM »

1st i had a little error, all german tests are done at Fluggewicht. Fluggewicht = Normal Combat Weight

Rüstgewicht is just the plane without fuel or ammo on board, just with all necessary equitment installed.

And to the IL2 data, IL2 uses data from a russian test of a FW190A8, and to be honest, i think noone really knows in which condition the plane was.

hazed- · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2002, 12:34:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Hazed, I know, what I mean about having this device installed is just the device itself and its weight, not whether it was switched on or not. I say that cause between the numbers there are some related to the GM1 usage. This was a completely different device than the plain small extra fuel tank.

Excelent work here and with the performance tables of 38, 110, 47 and A8

mandoble i think this a8 has gm1 but in the rather lenghy description of the whole flight testing Capt. Brown performed, he is very specific about turning on or off GM1 or methenol water injection. From what ive read these results are with GM1 off and then he adds GM1 for the extra performance and to test added altitude gains. I would suspect the GM1 is not used for the climb to 19k but as the book is new i havent absorbed all the info, only recieved it a few hours ago.

this is an interesting excerpt from a 190a4 test he flew:

'I checked out the maximum level speed of my fw190A-4/U8--which incidently had had its external stores carriers removed by this time --- and clocked 394 mph (634 km/h) at 18,500ft (5,640 m). and I ascertained that the sevice ceiling was around 35,000 ft (10,670 m). so it matched the spitfire IX almost mile per hour and foot per foot of ceiling.Here were two aircraft that were so evently matched that the skill of the pilot became the vital factor in combat supremacy'

(btw he isnt claiming evently matched in turn etc as earlier he talks of where each aircraft outperforms the other in turn, climb, zoom etc and is very specific about differing speeds at various alts)

you gotta buy this book mandoble

Wmaker · « **Reply #20 on:** March 22, 2002, 01:04:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Yeah, okay... but that's not a clean config you used hazed.

I assume by clean (this usually means unloaded) config in this case, he meant no ammo (Maybe even no guns) and fuel load is unknown. Where was this test done? What time of year was this test done?

In civil aviation clean configuration means gear and flaps up. With military aircraft it also means without any bomb racks/pylons/external stores. This doesn't include internal stores in anyway.

During WW2 it was very common among both sides of the conflict to test combat aircraft at their combat weight...if this couldn't be achieved with original equipment for some reason, ballast weights were used. It is pretty logical considering that otherwise the results wouldn't be very useful for any kind of operational analysis/comparision between combat aircraft. As Naudet states sure there were test made with as light weight as possible but these are by far the minority.

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #21 on:** March 22, 2002, 01:05:03 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hazed-
turning on or off GM1 or methenol water injection.

In the same plane??? Both systems???

Quote

Originally posted by hazed-
you gotta buy this book mandoble [/B]

I would be as or even more depressed than you after reading it

Wulfe, your numbers are a bit extrange to me, BMW801D2 with MW50 should do 1900Hp (or more) on the deck instead of 1800.

A last point here, we have different top speed numbers for 190A5 and A8, why having same airframe? and no, it cant be the weight.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #22 on:** March 22, 2002, 01:32:14 PM »

So basically between those 2 data comparrisons either lies the answer to what it should really be like... or one of them is very wrong....

I can't say for certain either is right/wrong, because that's just some quick stuff from a "reputible"(because they made the plane in the game) site I pulled here just for comparrison purposes.

I won't have access to my books at home until Monday (won't be home till then), but if this thread is still alive I will post data from "The Great Book Of WWII Airplanes" "Encyclopedia of the worlds fighters" and from "Hitler's LuftWaffe"....

Not as a means to discredit your info, but just for comparrisons.
-SW

MiloMorai · « **Reply #23 on:** March 22, 2002, 02:27:22 PM »

Il-2 has errors, at least in the game a/c data section.

A factory graph for the A-8 shows @ SL a speed of 500kph to 564kph depending on the ata. No ETC501, surfaces filled and polished

SKurj · « **Reply #24 on:** March 22, 2002, 02:30:23 PM »

Great Book of WW2 Airplanes A8 data

Max Speed: (clean)
355mph (570kmh)SL
402 mph (647kmh)18,045ft
with GM1 408 mph at 20,670ft

time to 19684ft(6000m) 9 min 6 sec
time to 26,250ft(8000m) 14 min 24 sec

801D-2
Take off 1700hp 2700rpm 20.2psi boost
climb and combat 1500hp 2400rpm 18.7psi

This book also shows MK103 gondolas

SKurj

hazed- · « **Reply #25 on:** March 22, 2002, 02:49:33 PM »

SW heres conversion:

SW' book : hazeds book : AH test

6000m 625km/h (388mph) : 6300m 656km/h (408mph) : 6300m 642km/h (399mph)

SL 530km/h (329mph) : SL 571km/h (355mph) : SL 523-530km/hr (325-330)

just to make it easier to understand.

Sikboy · « **Reply #26 on:** March 22, 2002, 03:05:19 PM »

It seems likely to me that HTC has culled data from multiple sources, and used an average of the numbers to off-set potential bias or outliers. With that in mind, your AH test speed is pretty much right between what the two books claim. The SL speed is still low, according to these two sources, but as you've pointed out, we don't know what sources HTC has used.

-Sikboy

Vermillion · « **Reply #27 on:** March 22, 2002, 03:06:39 PM »

I've posted this about 8,765 times

but here it is again.

These charts are from:

"Fw190A-8 Aircraft Handbook"
D. (Luftt) T.2190A-8
effective July 1944, Issued September 1944

This is the english translation, of the edition issued by Wittmer, Chief of Technical Services, Luftwaffe High Command, Berlin 5 September 1944.

Standard Fw190A8 (4 cannons)
Performance vs Altitude Chart

Fw190A8 (4 cannons) + GM1
Performance vs Altitude Chart

Fw190A8/R2 (AH 190 with x2 30mm cannons)
Performance vs Altitude Chart

hazed- · « **Reply #28 on:** March 22, 2002, 03:13:02 PM »

vermillion how about explaining what the charts say? and saying where it matches or doesnt match what we see here?

That chart is dutch to me but am i right in thinking it says 350mph at sealevel for the 190a8 4x20mm?

Vermillion · « **Reply #29 on:** March 22, 2002, 05:05:42 PM »

Hazed, if you will look at the charts you will notice that the charts I posted match the data that AH posts in the Help section exactly.

Now, my charts show that the max speed for the Fw190A8 with 4 cannons at Sea Level should be 355mph.

I just went offline and test this myself. With 4 cannons, 100% fuel in a clean configuration (no droptanks, and no wgr21's) and at a altitude of 100ft on autolevel & WEP, I got the aircraft to hit 355mph TAS (the red tick mark) dead on.

Which matches the charts I have and Pyro's posted charts exactly.

Here's the film.

190 TEST FILM

You might go back and check your previous tests and see what you get again.