FW190a8 is modeled incorrectly.........

[hazed-]

This is specs given for 190a8 with same 4x20mm loadout in
'The wings if the Luftwaffe'
by captain Eric Brown CBE,DSC,AFC,RN.
isbn  1-85310-413-2

A flight tester of all the captured aircraft during and after the war.
AN excellent read and source of information.He comments on all aspects of the aircraft, which is an extensive list!

Focke Wulf 190a8 specification:
Power plant: On BMW 801D 14 cylinder radial air cooled engine rated at 1,700 hp for take off and 1,440 hp at 18,700 ft (5700m) fuel capacity 115.5 Imp gal (524 l) in two fuselage tanks plus 25.3 Imp gal (115 l) in optional rear fuselage tank plus provision for 66.2 Imp gal (300 l) drop tank,
Performance: (clean): Max speed 355 mph (571 km/h) at sea level, 402 mph (647 km/h) at 18,045 ft (5,500 m); max speed with GM1 nitrious oxide boost 408 mph (656 km/h) at 20,670 ft (6,300 m); normal cruising speed 298mph (480 km/h) at 6,560 ft (2,000 m); initial rate of climb 3,450 ft/min (17.5 m/s); time to climb to 19,685 ft (6000 m) 9.1 min; to 26,250ft (8000 m) 14.4 min; to 32,800 ft (10,000 m) 19.3 min; service ceiling 33,800ft (10,300 m) and with GM1 boost 37,400 ft (11,400 m); max range 644 mls (1,035 km) at 22,970 ft (7,000 m); range with one drop tank, 915 mls (1,470 km) at 301 mph (485 km/h) at 16,600 ft (5,000 m).
Weights: Empty equipped (clean) 7,652 lb (3,470 kg); empty equipped (fighter-bomber) 7,740 lb (3,510 kg); normal loaded 9,660 lb (4,380 kg); max take-off (fighter-bomber) 10,724 lb (4,865 kg)
Armement: two 13-mm MG 131 machine guns with 475 rpg in fuselage; tow 20-mm MG 151/20E cannon with 250 rpg in wing roots and two 20-mm MG 151/20E cannon with 140 rpg in outer wing panels.

So we have same loadout but in AH we dont even APPROACH 3000 ft/ min.Reading stuff like this just depresses me.Why is AH so different to what we see in the books? I trusted HTC had the right info on the 190s but this is a book written by an ALLIED test pilot.Hardly likely to lie about them.The book is very much written as a tester would describe an aircraft to another tester.
hope this opens a few eyes .

this is repeated from my other post after testing 4 aircraft.I then received a book i had ordered(above) and read the specs with quite some surprise.The 190a8 in AH is muted and performs FAR worse than these figures.WHY?

[Sikboy]

I should know better than to do this but....

): Max speed 355 mph (571 km/h) at sea level, 402 mph (647 km/h) at 18,045 ft (5,500 m); max speed with GM1 nitrious oxide boost 408 mph (656 km/h) at 20,670 ft (6,300 m); normal cruising speed 298mph (480 km/h) at 6,560 ft (2,000 m); initial rate of climb 3,450 ft/min

these numbers (in bold), look very similar to the HTC chart with WEP on. I wonder if the error, if there is one, lies somewhere in this area.

-Sikboy

[Staga]

Whaa? No squeaking?  

[Sikboy]

I don't squeak staga, I mock. And if you don't have anything productive to add... well, you know the rest.


-Sikboy

[Staga]

hmm what fuel did they use in tests ? Maybe they did use high octane fuel with higher manifold pressure ?

[Sikboy]

LOL

[AKSWulfe]

Skiboy was onto something... but he should of used the whole paragraph....

"Performance: (clean): Max speed 355 mph (571 km/h) at sea level, 402 mph (647 km/h) at 18,045 ft (5,500 m); max speed with GM1 nitrious oxide boost 408 mph (656 km/h) at 20,670 ft (6,300 m); normal cruising speed 298mph (480 km/h) at 6,560 ft (2,000 m); initial rate of climb 3,450 ft/min (17.5 m/s); time to climb to 19,685 ft (6000 m) 9.1 min; to 26,250ft (8000 m) 14.4 min; to 32,800 ft (10,000 m) 19.3 min; service ceiling 33,800ft (10,300 m) and with GM1 boost 37,400 ft (11,400 m); max range 644 mls (1,035 km) at 22,970 ft (7,000 m); range with one drop tank, 915 mls (1,470 km) at 301 mph (485 km/h) at 16,600 ft (5,000 m)."

I believe those #s are for a clean config, unless some fields didn't make it into the above quote.
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

Hazed, do you know whether these specs are from GM1 device equipped 190A8? Due the weight of that system, I suppose that initial climb rate would be different than with a normal 190A8.

What most intrigues me is just that "aux" tank. Was it normally present? If so, as an extra fuel tank (too little endurance gained)? As a GM1 device? As a MW50 tank? Each different answer imply different substained climb rates.

[Raubvogel]

Hazed.....did that aircraft have a full ammo load for testing? That might explain the difference.

[hazed-]

ok just performed all these tests in AH offline in nsdisles map with no wind layers

190a8 (clean) 4x20mm 75% FUEL LOAD



MAXimum speed at 20,670 ft with wep for OVER 5 minutes 399mph (400max)

MAXimum speed at 18,045 ft 385-390mph

MAXimum speed at sea level (@50ft) 325-330mph with WEP 349mph


All these speeds were attained by diving to 450 mph to the altitude for test and then allowing the aircraft to settle into its maximum speed non WEP (takes quites a while but eventually remains steady)

Im not going to start any of the roadkill conspiricy crap, Im not whining, I just want an answer. Preferably from HTC as I dont trust any of these so called real charts.

This is from the horses mouth as it were.I sought to find this book because I knew it was an Allied test pilot.His results im sure you'll agree are hardly going to be inaccurate or biased.He shows much enthusiasm for the aircraft he tests in this book but its from the standpoint of an enemy of this technology not a user of it.

BTW this is the first plane i have tested verses the information in this book.

the 109g6,ar234B,ju88,me262,he177,bf110 and ju87 amongst others are in here and ill be looking closley at their performances.
But rather than feeling pleased with myself for finding this information it has just dissapointed me.
Even if this books figures are slightly off the discrepency with AH is, I think you'll agree HUGE.

355 at sea level? we barely touch 330!

[Naudet]

Just a short notice about the data given in Brown's Book.
It is not actual RAF test data, that the data presented in many books (especially from William Green).

Edit: All german tests were made at Rüstgewicht (=Normal Combat weight) including all guns, ammo, fuel, often ETC-racks. But without additional payload like bombs, rockets or Droptanks.

[AKSWulfe]

Yeah, okay... but that's not a clean config you used hazed.

I assume by clean (this usually means unloaded) config in this case, he meant no ammo (Maybe even no guns) and fuel load is unknown. Where was this test done? What time of year was this test done?

AH most likely has much different atmospheric effects than where and when this test was performed. And on top of that, we don't even know which (if any) system (GM1/MW5) for the climb rate.

And why are you using only ONE source? You really should know better than that, it's best to look at atleast 3-4 sources to get a better idea.
-SW

[hazed-]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Hazed, do you know whether these specs are from GM1 device equipped 190A8? Due the weight of that system, I suppose that initial climb rate would be different than with a normal 190A8.

What most intrigues me is just that "aux" tank. Was it normally present? If so, as an extra fuel tank (too little endurance gained)? As a GM1 device? As a MW50 tank? Each different answer imply different substained climb rates.

mandoble thats the initial climb rate in the specs not sustained but the climb to 19k is a good indicator of the differnce in performance.

Ive opened a can of worms im sure but it needs to be adressed by HTC or someone with a good idea of what exactly could be wrong. I think its time to show us the charts/specs used for the AH model.If its a test done in the usa then lets see it please.

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Naudet
Just a short notice about the data given in Brown's Book.
It is not actual RAF test data, that the data presented in many books (especially from William Green).

Edit: All german tests were made at Rüstgewicht (=Normal Combat weight) including all guns, ammo, fuel, often ETC-racks. But without additional payload like bombs, rockets or Droptanks.

you saying its at combat weight or that william green is making it up? (same old thing. we find some data and its said to be nonsense.its depressing isnt it)

pretty convenient that.

notice i did AH tests with 75% fuel to allow some margin of error.

25% is VERY generous.

[AKSWulfe]

Here's some data from the Il-2 Sturmovik site.. I would give you data from some of my books... but I'm not at home so I just wanted to run this by you.

I don't know imperial->metric conversion, so you gotta do it... but does this data match any of the data you posted Hazed?

Engine: BMW-801D-2 + MW 50.
Power:
Take-off : 1,800 HP
Speed:
Sea level: 530 km/h.
At 6,000 m: 625 km/h.
Turn time at 1,000 m: 23-24 sec.
Climb to 5,000 m: 6.8 min.
Climb in a combat turn: 700-750 m.
Service ceiling: 10,500 m.
-SW