Tactical interdiction

[Seeker]

I thought these excerpts from a pilot's log book would be of interest to the strat weenies, and hopefully cause a torrent of irritating "we need this in AH!" whines....

***************************************************

March 24

1943:  
I flew two flights on this day.  One was a convoy patrol
mission in a P-39L for 1:30 hours and the other was a
local flight in a P-400 for 1:50 hours.

1944:  
I flew two P-39N skip-bomb missions in support of OPERATION
STRANGLE.  We departed Alghero, Sardinia to skip-bomb rail
lines at Grosetto, Italy;  returned to Ghisonaccia, Corsica
to refuel and rearm; then to skip-bomb rail lines at Cecina,
Italy.  We had to land at Ghisonaccia for refueling before
returning to Alghero. Total flight time was 4:10 hours.

Our attacks were against the railroad itself - to damage
the tracks, either on land or where crossing bridges.  We
were always figuring ways to cause the most damage - that
which would required the longest time for the enemy to
repair.  One successful innovation was the welding of
spikes to the noses of delayed-fused bombs.  This way, when
flying along the tracks, the bomb would likely stick into a
cross-tie rather than bouncing off.  The fuse delay was
necessary because we were at low altitude and flying in
trail (an incentive to close up to the plane ahead,
especially if you were tail-end Charlie).  We hoped this
kind of attack would spread the rails so that they would
have to be replaced rather than simply repaired.  


By the way - this is one of those P-47 pilots who was instructed to fire at the road surface in front of armour. And who earned a Silver Star doing it.

Let the whining begin!

[Wotan]

theres no whining to be had..........

bouncing 50 cals off dirt roads to kill pnzrs which had armor underneath didnt happen.........ever.....

Now  the pnzr crews may have bailed out of the tnk for better cvr but I am pretty certain 50 cals bouncing off coble stone, concrete , asphalt or dirt aint gonna be able to penetrate armor. Even if that were possible getting an accurrate angle in it self would be near impossible....

But if it lets ya sleep at night go with it

Now Rudel will show ya how to kill armor

[Revvin]

bouncing 50 cals off dirt roads to kill pnzrs which had armor underneath didnt happen.........ever.....

Well its one tactic I've heard again and again from vets interveiwed on the History Channel as well as accounts of tanks being overturned by close hits from a 500lb bomb, a squad mate of mine drop 2x 500lb and 6 rockets all around an Ostwind a few nights ago and no damage was done. I'm sure the crew would not have been in much of a fit state to fire straight after all that ord so close.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Seeker
By the way - this is one of those P-47 pilots who was instructed to fire at the road surface in front of armour. And who earned a Silver Star doing it.
 

...While in Germany, you actually had to shoot down planes or blow stuff up to get medals.
 
I would very much like to see the SS quotation for that one btw...
"For conspicuous gallantry in the line of duty, 1st Lt Pete Thomas, serving as a P-47 pilot in the Carentan area in France, June 10th 1944. While on a patrol over enemy territory, Lt Thomas spotted several German tanks advancing along a road. With complete disregard for his own safety, and under heavy fire from enemy AAA, Lt Thomas dove in and shot up a piece of French road in front of the German tanks with his .50 cal MGs, causing several German tankers to drive off the road and crash into trees from laughing. His superb airmanship, his outstanding skill and personal valor reflect great credit upon Lt Thomas' gallant fighting spirit and upon the U.S. Air Force.

[Maverick]

I just love all these armchair generals who never saw combat stating they are the definitive expert on what did or did not happen before they were born. Of course they are SO much better prepared to tell the world what went on instead of those vets who actually did fight in that conflict.

[J_A_B]

So I suppose I'm more of a racecar expert than Mario Andretti is because I have more career wins in GPL than he does in the real deal?

J_A_B

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Maverick
I just love all these armchair generals who never saw combat stating they are the definitive expert on what did or did not happen before they were born. Of course they are SO much better prepared to tell the world what went on instead of those vets who actually did fight in that conflict.

Since I somehow got the feeling this was aimed at me...

Well, last time I checked, not even wwii vets were able to defy the laws of physics...how do you explain that?

Please go ahead and describe they physics behind a .50 cal bullet fired from an aircraft into a paved road. Proceed to explain if, how, and why that bullet richochets from the pavement, go on with describing it's energy state after that richochet, as well as the state of the bullet itself (deformed, tumbling etc). THEN explain how a bullet with this energy state can penetrate the bottom armor of a "typical" German tank. Or if you will, any specific German tank. And while you do this, please remember that most German tanks had about the same thickness on the roof as on the bottom. Explain why that .50 cal bullet fired infront of the tank has any better chance penetrating the bottom armor than the top armor?

The entire idea is pure nonsense. Perhaps fit for an episode of Hogans heroes or something like that, but thats about it.

[dr1fter]

Wotan you are incorrect.

bouncing 50 cals off dirt roads to kill pnzrs which had armor underneath didnt happen.........ever.....

I saw an interview with a P47 pilot who made the statement that it was standard practice to fire at the road (if it was hard) so the rounds would ricochet under the panzer and destroy the engine.  I think he said it was done from the rear of the tank though not the front.

While I am definitely not a tank expert any armor would have been minimal on the bottom of the tank, if there was any at all.  Armor on the belly of a tank would most likely be viewed as a waste of weight by designers.

Drifter

[CRASH]

While I dont know anything about killin armor with 50's I did while on active duty see a training film made by the Houston Police Department called "Bullet Bounce".  Apparently, bullets when fired at a hard surface or water will not ricochet at the reciprocal angle prior to impact but will follow the plane of the surface they struck.  So if you fire a bullet at a road surface rather than bouncing back up the bullet will run along the top of the road until its energy is expended or until it hits something else. I've personally witnessed this phenomena while on machine gun ranges, when the tracers hit the 50 gal drums or other hard object that they didnt penetrate they would come off, very often straight up, along the plane of the drum surface rather than bounce back toward the direction of fire.  Because of the surface  tension of water you should never fire at a body of water because the bullet wont penetrate the surface but run along the top.  This I've never tested but have been instructed as such by various firearms instructors.
     One thing you guys should understand is that very often senior pilots during wwii were very young and inexperienced in warfare and were prone to making bad decisions and perpetuating myths about what they thought would work.  So basically you could end up with a 24 year old captain who's never fired a shot in anger before come into a theatre and tell his guys, who are just as green as he is or more, " look if you fire at the road you'll kill the tank", the rest of his troops, most younger and more inexperienced than him will say "yeah, sure, that sounds like it'll work" and 40 years later they will still be repeating the same thing because they haven't flown combat since wwii and no one's ever taught them differently.  Could the bullets running along the road chew up the treads some?  Sure.  Is it gonna make alot of sparks and look like it's causing all kinds of damage?  Yup.  Are the slugs actually penetrating the hull from underneath?  I doubt it.

[Mino]

Ugh....


The ugly burden of the truth.  IMO if you say it then prove it!

[Wotan]

I dont care what you saw or read.

Thst bs we all know it but again if it gets you throught the night go ahead and believe.

Just do this 1 thing though out all the destroyed tanks in ww2. Find 1  that can be proven to have been killed by a bouncing 50 cal.

german pnzrs had armor underneath them to protect them from anti tank mines.

This has been covered on this board and every other one I read. !st the angle to get the correct bounce is impossible second the road surface needs be dense enough and third the bullet would loose too much energy to penetrate the armor.

Search this for the exact details that prove beyond any resonable doudt that it happened.

 drftr there have been numerous post about armor thickness for the underside of pnzrs I dont recall the number but it was more then minimal.....

Lastly how would a jug pilot flying above 300 know he disabled atank from underneath? Did the tnk explode ? catch fire? smoke?

He may have seen the crew bail and head for cover simply to get back in the tank after he left.

But bouncing bullets BULLSH**

and I am not wrong

[Voss]

Note, Seeker did not say what the Jug pilot was firing, but somehow I doubt even a 5.5" rocket would do much when fired into the ground in front of a tank.

Now, firing downhill (as anyone that has actually done it can tell you) causes the bullet trajectory to be above the aimpoint. *Aiming* at the road in front of the tank would make a little more sense, particularly if that tank was mobile.

[Seeker]

Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

I'll point out the salient stuff just incase there's any non-native English speakers that have reading comprehension problems:



By the way - this is one of those P-47 pilots who was instructed to fire at the road surface in front of armour. And who earned a Silver Star doing it.

Firing at the road *was* an establised practise - a standard order - a matter of historical record. *However*; just because it was done, says nothing about if it *actualy worked or not*. As other recent posts have shown, even rockets didn't do much actual damage, but no-one's stating that anti-armour jabo was a complete and utter waste of time I hope? After all, judging by the amount of abandoned armour, the pilots weren't the only ones who were sure it was working....

And Wotan wrote:

Lastly how would a jug pilot flying above 300 know he disabled atank from underneath? Did the tnk explode ? catch fire? smoke?

And that's the key. Many tanks, whilst in formation on a road convoy, carried stores and equipment externaly. Fuel, ammo, soldiers hitching a ride, you name it. We've all seen the war footage of how Tanks are used as "infantry school busses". It's extremely likely that it's those stores cooking off that caused both the abandonments and the claims of destruction from 18 - 30 year old pilots screaming along at 100 Ft at 350 MPH.

Now, we've a gameplay versus accuracy conumdrum to address here:

Historicaly, Anti-armour jabo-ing was extremly effective, in as much as it halted armour colums. And the game is supposed to mirror history and historical tactics.

But technicaly, Jabo didn't do the damage planners thought. Jabo-in the main- scared tankers into submission, they bailed!

So how should the game mechanics work?

Should a tank colum fear a flight of Tiffs or not?

So far, we've been having a lot of discussion on Allied anti-armour experence. Let's hear some Eastern front stuff for balance.

I'd post it, but I'm so obviously Allied biased that no one would trust a word I say, right, Horten?

[Wotan]

they didnt leave good operable tanks behind they left the tnk the air attack stopped they got back in.

I imagined they feared explosive ord more then 50 cals..

There is a good write up in Hazed's post about 50 cal vrs armor. Fact is german left tnks more because they had no gas they anything.

Dropping bombs on tanks in rl aint that ez not all tnks were lined up in column center of the road.

Rudel killed more tnks from the air yhen anyone he did in ju88g with the 37mm.

They didnt give up their tanks cause p47s shot the road up and 50 cals bouncing off the road didnt disable the tnks. Rockets and bombs is what destroyed tnks even then it wasn't at the rate claimed by the pilots.

Besides the real tanking was going on in the east

Seelow Heights

Anyway

Heres a link and read the whole deal.(its long) Alot of claims are made but in reality it just weren't that way..


June 6 1944

[MANDOBLE]

Now we have some evidence of the 50" antitank power. If these pilots were instructed to fire at the road trying to put some bullets into the panzer engine from below it was only because they CAN'T harm the panzers hitting them even in the upper rear zone (over the engine).

P47 boys will need to wait till AH modeles roads to really kill panzers with their 50".