Author Topic: Spit XIV and perks  (Read 1036 times)

Offline Slayer

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Spit XIV and perks
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2002, 03:43:17 AM »
theres an idea use staga's moms credit card.


there this is more of a childish post

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2002, 03:52:00 AM »
About fighters ability to dictate a fight, dont forget that we have a 3D space, you can extend in the horizontal or in the vertical. And our actual D9 is unable to follow spits in the vertical at almost any altitude, and above 25k is unable to follow them in the horizontal (even SpitV is superior at hi alts). The primary advantage in real live, roll rate, is minimized in AH to a point where it is not more a clear 190 advantage over any plane.
After a lot of tests, Spit and D9 are equal in the dive, D9 is better keeping speed once leveled, but spit has much better control at hi speeds in the dive, where the D9 is shaking like mad with almost no elevator control. The advantage of SpitXIV will be much more noticeable. Personally I cant see both planes in the same leage except for top speed at level flight. Same is aplicable to P51 vs SpitXIV and even to UberTyphs. Against G10, vertical performance would be similar, but no way to compare them in hi speed control or weapons.

Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2002, 03:54:46 AM »
LOL Wilbus, are your book refering to the secret project 190Z-99 ??? ;)

Offline Wilbus

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« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2002, 05:12:25 AM »
190Zwilling 99? ;) *scratches head, I must be going mad*

That was actually taken from the webpage Zjazz posted, it is described in "Focke Wulf Fw 190 in Combat" that the A3 outzoomed and outclimbed the spit V with eas.  in AH? *giggles*
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Offline MANDOBLE

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« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2002, 05:26:13 AM »
oh I forgot to examine these links. I suppose they are part of a comic magazine. Specially funny is the comparison between 190A and SpitIX:

Climb:During comparative climbs at various heights up to 23,000 feet [7012 metres], with both aircraft flying under maximum continuous climbing conditions, little difference was found between the two aircraft although on the whole the Spitfire was slightly better.

I suppose there is a bug in the heigh being it 2300 feet instead 23000 ;)

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2002, 10:39:17 AM »
MANDOBLE,

The text on those pages was taken from the ADFU Tactical trials.  Keep in mind that it is almost certainly a plain vanilla Bf109G-6 and the Fw190A is probably an A-2 or A-3.

You may read the rest of the reports here:

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14pt.html
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/rb141weights.html
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/rb141handling.html
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14afdu.html
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Offline Replicant

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« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2002, 12:40:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo


"NEXX

PS Thank you Hristo for posting a very UN-biased topic!
"
Hristo is just saying what he wants to hear Kieran.. My post wasnt directed at you.


Well I doubt I'd still fly the Spitfire 14 anyway.... I saluted Hristo because he's a Luftwaffe fan and to actually stick up for the RAF, imo, requires a .  So sorry you're so stuck up your own rear end!  :)

Nexx
NEXX

Offline Zippatuh

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« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2002, 01:19:06 PM »
This is the most interesting thing I've seen in this thread.

Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus

Ta152, Tempest, F4u-4 (can leave F4u1c out of it too) should all be tested free, see how much people really fly them.
 I am willing to bet most people would still chose La7's, spits and nikis over those planes. First week everybody would fly em, then... many would go back to their normal rides.


With the exception of the Tempest, that baby is a monster and should be perked.  Ta152 and F4U-4 should at the very least be cheaper.

Spit XIV, IMO, if it doesn’t have some perk cost to it, then it will end up being the ride of choice.  Have no problems with running it free though to see how it works out in the arena.  

Zippatuh

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2002, 01:58:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Replicant


Well I doubt I'd still fly the Spitfire 14 anyway.... I saluted Hristo because he's a Luftwaffe fan and to actually stick up for the RAF, imo, requires a .  So sorry you're so stuck up your own rear end!  :)

Nexx


But Nexx UN-biased doenst mean "agrees with me"
or "says something I like".

What you meant to say was "here is someone who disgrees with me normally...but he agrees with me this time so he is un-biased.
All the other times he was biased"
Which you will admit...makes you look like a biased stupid dweeb...
we wouldnt want that would we...

Offline BigMax

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« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2002, 02:54:58 PM »
I think the whole thing needs to be reworked.  Some are perked and shouldn't be, other are vice versa. Why not have a War ERA plane availability based perk system. Vice the "we don't want to see just Spit XIVs".  Late in the war, that would be realistic.

Why not have an HTC sponsored rotating war era.  Don't disable any planes, but change the perked value proportionally from Historically sponsored year to year and rotate once per week or so.

In the early war era, the later planes cost tons of perkies and earn you less with kills.  

But in the later years, they (Late era planes) get substantially cheaper and score better, but the early planes earn you tons of perkies.

I think you could get the best of both worlds.. and the balance of planes being flown should theoretically shift with the ERA if the perked values get properly weighted.

Everyone could fly what they want, assuming they have perkies, and the realism buffs would get "more realistic" fights. It might be something to consider....
« Last Edit: March 25, 2002, 03:02:06 PM by BigMax »

Offline Seeker

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« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2002, 03:24:48 PM »
Nice one, Hristo.

Good to see a Sportsman.

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2002, 10:28:36 PM »
Replicant and Seeker, this thread is about Spit XIV, not about me ;).

Still, I am surprised by quite a few opponents to an unperked XIV. Could its reputation be overblown maybe ? I am sure it has weaknesses.

OK, consider perking it, but only if it is overused after being introduced as free.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2002, 12:06:01 AM »
Well, I don't know how the Spit XIV will perform in AH.  I have played 3 games that included the Spit XIV, Aces Over Europe, European Air War and WarBirds.  In Aces Over Europe the Spit XIV was king and was only rivaled by the Fw190D-9 and Spit IX, but I don't put any stock in the FMs of Aces Over Europe.  In EAW and WB the Spit XIV was good, but nothing special.  In EAW the Spit IX was better, and the multiplayer sessions of EAW would inevitably be filled with Spit IXs.  In WBs the Spit XIV just felt lackluster to me.  It climber well, but that was the only strength I remember, and even then my friend's P-38 out climbed it.

In AH it may prove to be a truely perk-worthy monster.

We must defer, at least for the time being, to HTC as they are the only people who have any idea of how the AH Spit XIV will handle.


The existing perk planes, with the exception of the F4U-1C, I think are very over priced.  We all agree that the Tempest is a monster, the best perk fighter other than the 262, that needs to be controled.  What I disagree about is how monstrous the Tempest really is.  I have encountered 5 in AH, I destroyed 3 of them.  They don't perform that much better than the fighters that are already top dogs.  Sure, it has an edge on the La-7 and P-51D, but not by very much at all.  Certainly not by a comfortable margin.  If that is where the Tempest stands, the best piston perk fighter, where does that leave the F4U-4 and Ta152H-1?

The question that must be asked in tandem is "How many perk points do people who wish to fly perk planes have on average?"

The fact that sombody like Laz who never flies perk planes has thousands upon thousands is irrelevant.   Perk points don't affect Laz, his 1944 bird, the F4U-1D, is free.  The same is true of dedicated, fly only the P-51D, Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 guys.

If the typical guy who is inclined to take a perk plane for a spin now and then, or when he feels like it, has thousands of points to burn, then there is no issue.  If, however, most players only have tens or a few hundreds of perk points then the current prices are simply too expensive for the performance difference.

I see, on this BB, repeated statements by "so-and-so" that he has thousands of perk points and can fly whatever he wants and thinks that the perk prices should be raised to enforce the rarity of these "superplanes".  I think those who make statements to that effect are making a logical fallacy, that because they can fly whatever they want so must everybody else be able too.  Most often these guys have hundreds or thousands of posts on this BB.  In short, they are the most dedicated and faithful AH player, probably the most skilled as well.

Surprisingly often though, I see posts by guys with only a few posts to this BB, sometimes their first post, about finally saving enough perk points for that Tempest, only to lose it taking off, or being gangbanged, sometimes discoed, and sometimes landing.  I have a feeling that this is the thin voice of a "silent majority".  Most subscribers don't post on this BB.  The average K/D ratio is less than 1 and very few can bring home 2-3 F4U-1Cs per flight, I know that I very rarely even bring 1 home.  Most often I get 1-2 perk points per flight.

I think that the prices should be more like this:

F4U-1C: 8
Ta152H-1: 12
F4U-4: 16
Ar234B: 20
Spitfire Mk XIV: 20 (guessing its performance)
Tempest Mk V: 24
Me262A: 100

If these prices were to fail to adequately control the populations of these aircraft, then they could be raised.  I simply do not think these numbers indicate anwhere near imbalancing usage, these numbers indiacte absolutely transparent usage:

The Me 262 has 1083 kills and has been killed 196 times.
The Tempest has 781 kills and has been killed 181 times.
The F4U-4 has 308 kills and has been killed 176 times.
The Ta 152H has 408 kills and has been killed 203 times.
The Ar 234 has 62 kills and has been killed 175 times. (Admittedly this doesn't tell us anything about the numbers of Ar234s)

The other problem I have with the perk system is that it annouces to everybody when a perk plane, other than an F4U-1C, is in the area.  The perk icons are the single biggest reason for the "gangbang the perk" syndrome.  Some aircraft, the Me 262, Ar234 and Tempest, are unique, stand alone types and must bear individual icon names.  Others, F4U-4, Spitfire Mk XIV and Ta152H-1 could easily bear the name of the base type.  Maybe this is to equalize all perks, removing anonymity from the upgraded aircraft places them on the same desirability, or lack of desirability as the case may be, as those unique aircraft that must bear a "perk" icon due to their uniqueness.

At least lets not price them out of existance as they are now.
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Offline Booky

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« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2002, 01:41:29 AM »
I don't care what gets perked and what doesn't. All I want is for the god awfull perk icon giveway. You know the one that says "Im a perk, bring the hord over and come rape me without lube." Yes that one, get rid of it so they have to use visual aids to decide if your a perk or not. Hell Id go for getting rid of Icons all together, just give a colored dot to tell if tis enemy or freind.

Offline BigMax

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« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2002, 07:08:35 AM »
Karnak & Booky,

I like both of those ideas....  200 pts for a 262 is extreme. Yes it dictates fights...yada yada yada... But 200 pts?!??!  A 5pt ftr sortie is very respectable - so have great sorties 40 times to up your 262 so that when you disco you just want to say screw it and go play Diablo or some other simm....

As for the Perk Icons... Book makes a good point.  Put the generic lables on the planes @ > 3K (at that close range, you can usally ID your target's model).  Put an Friend or Foe IDer at 6K.  Would add some value to doing your homework.