Middle East - DejaVu?

[ispar]

Hang, if making that comparison isn't roadkill, I don't know what is. WHEN that person stands on my doorstep, it won't be because of anything I did. It might be because someone or something else pissed him off. When he appears on my doorstep, I will do everything I can to avoid violence. If that does not appear to be an option, the son-of-a-squeak is dead, if I can get him before he gets me. That's a far cry from support of military action, and THAT'S the real world, not some roadkill nightmare world where the only way to have any value is to pick up a gun and go off to some distant country that's pissed us off. Maybe they've pissed us off because we pissed them off first; whatever. But the idea that that is going to make me and my liberties safer, is complete roadkill. For every person you kill, there is always going to be someone else that you're pissing off enough to make them want to kill you, too. The idea of war making the world a better, freer place is simply a ridiculous notion. EVERY "necessary" war in recent history has been the unavoidable result of a previous war. You can trace much of the conflicts we have today back to WWI, even before.

Hang, you can take your holier-than-thou assessment of the value of my beliefs and shove them up your ass. You might have to remove your head first, though. I don't give a damn about what your opinions on the matter are; I don't hold them against you. What I do hold against you is your incredible arrogance and presumption. Have a nice day.

[midnight Target]

Ghandi was more than willing to DIE for his beliefs. His non-violent revolt was no where near non-confrontational. Check it out.

[easymo]

The likes of Ghandi, and Martian L. King are extraordinary in one obvious way. Their rarity.

  Passifist often claim that they are willing to die for their beliefs.  Knowing full well that the odds of them being called upon to do so are very slim.

 Historically, the odds for a soldier going into combat are much, much higher.

 Comparing the courage of a passifist, and a soldier is ludicrous.

[midnight Target]

And neither was a passifist. There is a big difference between nonviolence and passivism. There was nothing passive about MLK either.

[ispar]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Ghandi was more than willing to DIE for his beliefs. His non-violent revolt was no where near non-confrontational. Check it out.

I said it already; there are more ways to fight than with violence. Ghandi is proof of that. There is simply no way to avoid confrontation.

I suggest you read what I have said more carefully. I do not want to die for my beliefs; but I would be willing to do so if ever the possibility is there.

easymo, it is not so ludicrous. A soldier risks death; a pacifist faces and risks different things. Courage is required for both.

If I were to become a soldier, it would not be courageous; it would be a surrender. Many people that commit suicide are not really afraid to die; would you call them courageous in their decision to die?

[Hangtime]

What I do hold against you is your incredible arrogance and presumption.

Well now.. I'm no less arrogant or presumptous than Ben Franklin, Thomas Payne, or any one of several hundered million other less voicifierous or famous, but no less patriotic souls that trod the ground for freedom around, past and and in FRONT of the likes of you, back thru history.. but if you say so, then I'll accept it as a compliment.

And thank you. I guess it goes without saying, that we also stand to defend your right to say it.. and wonder how long it'll take yiou to admit that right is a gift, paid for in blood, by many far further up the food chain than you and your ilk.

[easymo]

I had one of those war dreams last week. It was like one of those over used movie scenes. Sweat pouring off me, the shakes, a feeling of deep depression that lasted for days.  This in spite of the fact that I haven't been in combat in 3 decades.

Tell me ispar. Other than being called a chicken toejam.  What do you risk.

[Toad]

but I'll reply to one of Ispar's questions.

Ispar:"And tell me what difference there is between you, the cheerleader, and me the dissenter, in anything but our ideology."

Just this: On September 12, 2001, I called up the Kansas ANG and for the second time in my life volunteered to be put on active duty. To serve my nation as its leaders saw fit to use me.

...and that, for me, is all the difference in the world.

Sleep well.

(They took my name and told me they'd call if they needed me. No, they haven't called yet.)

[Toad]

Originally posted by Hangtime
You entire life is built upon freedoms bought with the blood of others.. you insult their sacrafice.

Well said, Hang.

[ispar]

What do I risk easymo? As yet, not my life. I do risk my pride. I risk being misjudged my those that presume to know more of what is right than I. I risk being called a coward, though I have said REPEATEDLY that death is of no issue. I will die for my beliefs, which means that I will NOT die with a gun in my hand, fighting for something that I believe to be wrong. I risk the grinding into the dirt of my character and my spirit, simply because I WILL NOT STAND for something that I percieve as an injustice. I risk the devaluation of my morals by people who have no knowledge of myself, and no respect for my ideals, and no conception of my understanding of the sacrifices that have allowed me to be what I am today.

No, it isn't much yet easymo. It hasn't been my life. It hasn't been my family or home, but those risks are growing everyday. You and other vets have been through hell and earth and then back again, and I respect that immensely because I have no conception of what hell really is. I am much younger than you are. If I wanted to call up and volunteer my services, I would be told to come back in a year for being too young! There are things that I can do though.

There is not a day that goes by that I don't thank whatever it is that is responsible for me being an American and free to determine my own values and my own beliefs. Spit on those that have come before? Hardly! Sacrifices have been made by many, many more than just those with the guns. How many battles did Benjamin Franklin fight? What about Martin Luther King, Jr.? How many people did MLK have to kill to earn the respect that his name commands today? Finally, tell me how an unwillingness to kill for my country constitutes a lack of love for my country, an unwillingness to do the right thing, a hatred for my fellow Americans, my forefathers, and tell me how all this constitutes a hatred for my FELLOW MAN!?

There is a lot ahead of me, and a lot that I will do to try and help my country, and much that I wish to do to serve not just Americans but those that I have to share the world with.

Where did this start, anyway? Oh, that's right. For any man to make war upon any other man is unjust, and so I UTTERLY reject it. I don't care if you are American, French, German, Lebanese, Iraqi, or green - you put that diddlying sword DOWN.  My attitide does not allow for trampling or somehow disregarding and spitting on those that have fought and gone before. I am not passive, I am actively peaceful. Confrontations happen, yes. But they should never be solved through violent conflict.

I will say it again. I love this place. I will do whatever I can to make this nation a better place. I wish, when the opportunity comes, to go to where I can help, be it Iraq, Argentina, Colombia, or wherever. I will NOT go anywhere with a gun in my hands, because that is not what is needed. Good things can be done for people and for America without the use of military power and without support of military power. I am very sorry if you still choose to continue fulfilling this apparent deep psychological need to establish superiority. You certainly don't seem to be comprehending any of what I have said. That's just too bad for me, I suppose. Obviously, you are simply too wrapped up in your own illusions to truly read and understand me. Either that or you just don't care. It's too late now though, because this entire message is completely incomprehensible, I'm willing to bet. Tsk tsk, how sad this is.

[Steven]

<<>> -Ispar

If you see me in one of the arenas partipating in an effort to take one of your country's bases, I hope you use words instead of bullets to convince me to do otherwise.  Heh heh  

I'm surprised you participate in a game such as this, which glorifies all that you are against.  Even crabgrass kills in the name of land and survival and I'm not so sure crabgrass is as mindless as some segments of mankind.  ;-)

In the political arena, it's different than on the personal level.  If a country messes up, there is no mommy and daddy (or police) to run to for help.  If the USA miscalculates by laying down its arms, there is no second chance.  You are a gambling man, sir.

[ispar]

I play is because it is fun Steven. It has about as much reality as a game of tag. There is nothing at stake in AH, whatsoever.

That's exactly the point Steven. We are not crabgrass. I eat meat. I think PETA needs a collective head-soaking. Humans are animals only in the biological sense. We ought to know better than to kill off our own species. It's more complicated than that, but that's about what it amounts to. Hypocrisy? I suppose. We humans are hypocrites by nature. I can live with that.

[ispar]

Steven, have I posted anything but on the personal level? I do not support the military action, and I will not participate. I would rather we did not become engaged in a conflict, but what can I do? I can only help pick up the pieces... donation, medicine, peacemaking, etc.

[Hangtime]

I don't care if you are American, French, German, Lebanese, Iraqi, or green - you put that diddlying sword DOWN.

make me.

'cmon, lil unarmed pacifist man; MAKE ME.

get the point?

Untill you get armed, determined and fediddlein dangerous, you ain't gonna be anything but a slave without the protections granted to you, GIFTED TO YOU by the good folks that DID and now DO stand and FIGHT.

Without the process of armed conflict nothing that you have today would be yours. Nothing. Not even your life..

NOW, TODAY, the freedoms of this nation are ours to enjoy only for as long as we maintain an armed force whose mission is to keep the peace in an armed hostile world, to seek out, identify and destroy any who would threaten that peace. Thats the mission. Right now, today; tomorrow, and in to the forseeable future.

There may very well be a day when no army is required.. when no cops are required, when the guardians of civilization can be permitted to, nay be bade to lay down their swords... but that day will not come in my lifetime, nor in yours.

In the meantime, there are plenty of jobs open for mine field sweepers.. a job that's right up your avowed alley for it requires skill, exceeding paitience, humility, courage.. you will measurably improve the quality of lives in your new neighboorhood... you can be a hero, maybe even a martyr, no gun required.

May your God bless you, and keep you safe. Good Luck.

[Steven]

Ispar,

I have been drinking so maybe I misread your points.  But I did come away thinking you'd stated you wish there was no military and would never hold a gun.  But if you converted everyone in this country to your thinking, we'd probably be in a bad position in this country.  Dying for your belief does you no good because your belief dies with you...it's better to make the other person die.  ;-)  

And, like I pasted above, you wrote:
<>>
Yeah, it is unjust.  But if someone makes war on the USA, who do we run to?  

<>
So, a baby-seal-clubbing game or a wife-beating game is okay as well?  It's just a game and not real.  Or how about the "shoot-race-X" game?  There are many, many people who seriously think what we do here in Aces High is some bad stuff by making light and playing war.  I'm not so sure someone with your stand should be "playing" war.  You confuse me.

But I'm glad to have you here.